Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Poker Hall of Fame/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Matthewedwards 15:25, 30 June 2009 [1].

Poker Hall of Fame[edit]

Nominator(s): ---I'm Spartacus! NO! I'm Spartacus! 05:07, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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Here is the latest of the Poker articles for FL consideration. ---I'm Spartacus! NO! I'm Spartacus! 05:07, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(Copied comment from the poker project where I asked for a second set of eyes a week or so ago.)

The article looks pretty good to me. One thing, the line "Currently, the Poker Hall of Fame is virtual in nature." needs to be clarified/written in language that everyone can understand. It threw me when I read it, especially since it was tacked on to the end of a historical summary of casino ownership of the HOF. I tried to fix it but kept getting the fizzing Beavis and Butthead light bulb. Hazir (talk) 18:56, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done---I'm Spartacus! NO! I'm Spartacus! 13:56, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support, all issues resolved. I hope that the next FLC you submit is a better-prepared than this one. All the same, good job. Dabomb87 (talk) 13:23, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved issues, Dabomb87 (talk)
Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)
  • "In 1979, Benny Binion, the owner of the Horseshoe Casino, created the the Poker Hall of Fame..." Ref?
Ref added.---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 22:14, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1949, he convinced two of the biggest names in Poker" 1) "Poker" shouldn't be capitalized 2) "two of the biggest names" is rather unencyclopedic; try "two of the most famous poker players"
Reworded, as I'm not sure how famous they were at the time. Made it more about the stakes.---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 22:14, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "While many of the best known poker players in the world are part of the Hall of Fame, very little is known about some of the earlier members." "While"-->Although
Done---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 22:14, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "While the original Hall of Fame was created by the Horseshoe Casino as a tourist attraction, the Hall currently does not a physical location." 1) "While"-->Although 2) delete "currently" 3) There's a missing word.
reworded.---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 22:14, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "physical location. It only exists on paper."-->physical location; it only exists on paper.
Done---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 22:14, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Prior to"-->Before (multiple occurences)
Done---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 22:14, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would recommend copying the requirements and putting them in quotes. "Player must have stood the test of time." Doesn't sound encyclopedic anyway.
Copied---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 22:14, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "mebers " Typo?
Fixed---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 22:14, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Main Event Final Table" Link?
I can't think of an appropriate link, the only I would link to would be the WSOP main page, but that's already linked.---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 22:14, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Being admitted to the Poker Hall of Fame is considered one of the biggest honors in poker." Ref?
  • considers her induction as a "lifetime achievement honor."-->considers her induction to be a "lifetime achievement honor".
  • "was an 8 inch tall piece of glass "-->was an 8-inch-tall piece of glass (and we need a conversion)

Done---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 22:14, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • "the winners name"-->the winner's name

Done---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 22:14, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • "and the words, "Poker Hall of Fame" in a circle." No comma.

Done---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 22:14, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Em dashes in the blank cells. (—)

Done---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 22:14, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Where's the main reference for all the Hall of Famers? Dabomb87 (talk) 22:55, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 22:14, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try to tackle these tomorrow or Friday... I'm trying to finish up a 14 item DYK... which might become a 14 item FLC in the not too distant future. (Granted, I'll have to clean up the 14 items before the FLC... but just think what's in the works ;-) )---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 02:22, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Unexpected house guest, will try to take care of this this weekend.---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 08:17, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Follow-up

  • "Freeze out tournament" or "Freeze-out tournament"? I see both in the article.
  • "in the summer of 1949 Nick the " It's winter in half the world.
  • " five month long poker marathon"--> five-month-long poker marathon
  • "Nick the Greek reportedly loss about $2 million to Moss and upon losing the final hand stood up and said" "loss" is the wrong verb tense. "upon" could be "on".
  • "This event, which became a tourist attraction, is often cited as the earliest inspiration behind the World Series of Poker Which "event" was this? There needs to be a period at the end.
  • "Red Winn was one of the pioneers in poker and considered to be an all around great poker player.-->A pioneer in poker, Red Winn is considered to be an all-around great poker player.
  • " twentieth century"--> 20th century
  • "The hand has since been called the Dead man's hand" Needs a period at the end, and "Dead" shouldn't be capitalized.
  • "whist" Link?
  • "from 1946-1982"-->from 1946 to 1982
  • "Boyd is credited with spreading Robert Turner's game Omaha hold 'em into a casino staple."-->Boyd is credited with establishing Robert Turner's game Omaha hold 'em as a casino staple.
  • " Poker Hall of Famer's" No apostrophe. (two occurences)
  • "Doyle Brunson wrote a book, Super/System" Book titles should be italicized.
  • " At one point, Strauss was down to one chip, and he came back to win."--> At one point, Strauss had one chip remaining, and came back to win.
  • "A chip and a chair;"-->"A chip and a chair",
  • "notoriety", not "notoreity ".
  • "Founder of the Horseshoe Casino and the WSOP." Shouldn't have a period at the end.
  • "Despite winning 3 bracelets" "3"-->three
  • "cash game play"-->cash-game play
  • "person ever enshirined in the Poker Hall of Fame."-->person to be enshirined in the Poker Hall of Fame.

I'll return to look at "Thomas Preston" on down. Overall, I'm unhappy with the density of issues, many of which could have been picked up on a simple proofread. Dabomb87 (talk) 13:11, 23 June 2009 (UTC) Final comments[reply]

  • "At one point, Strauss had one chip remaining, and came back to win.." Double period.
  • "Slim also hosted the Super Bowl of Poker, which was the second most prestigious tournament of its day"-->"Slim hosted the Super Bowl of Poker, considered the second most prestigious tournament of the time." I also think hyphens are needed, but I asked Tony1 (talk · contribs) about exactly where.
  • "and then won the event again in 1996."
  • "He and Johnny Moss are the only people" How about "players" instead of people?
  • "with ten or more WSOP bracelets."-->with 10 or more WSOP bracelets.
  • "Baldwin has held numerous positions at various casinos." What is meant by "positions" here?
  • "In 2004 he had the most WSOP cashes of any poker player." So did he win all those cashes in 2004 or did he have that much at a certain point in 2004?
    • tweaked wording
  • "upon his father, Benny Binion's death."-->after the death of his father, Benny Binion.
  • "only person to win bracelets"-->only person to have won bracelets
  • Billy Baxter's note needs more context for those who don't understand US tax laws. How does counting poker winnings as earned income help the game or its players?
  • "only woman to make it to the final table"--only woman to have advanced to the final table
  • "at the age of 24"
  • "youngest person to ever win the WSOP main event."
  • "It was not until 2008, that this distinction was broken by 22 year old Peter Eastgate[27]" Missing punctuation after the sentence, remove the comma, and add hyphens: "22-year-old".
  • "Tomko has also played in every"-->He has played in every
  • "which is the longest streak ever."
  • "see players hole cards."-->see player's hole cards. Dabomb87 (talk) 23:45, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment on sources. I know it's frustrating, but we need to follow WP:RS. Unfortunately, "I consider [the source] reliable/established" is not good enough to prove its reliability. A large chunk of this is my fault for being lax and inconsistent on source reviews in previous FLCs, but we can't change the past. To determine the reliability of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliability that needs to be demonstrated. Please see Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches for further detailed information. Dabomb87 (talk) 16:15, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sources look good. Dabomb87 (talk) 13:25, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is the one I have the most question about, I'll try to find another source for this.---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 22:14, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Found better source.---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 22:50, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What is the replacement source? Dabomb87 (talk) 16:15, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
PokerNews.---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 04:14, 23 June 2009 (UTC) NOTE: should you have questions about PokerNews.com, you should read this Bluff Magazine] article wherein PokerNews entered into an agreement with the WSOP to provide ‘play by play’ updates and chip counts for publication on the worldseriesofpoker.com website, as well as on PokerNews.com. Bluff Magazine also writes, that PokerNews has garnered a reputations for providing what many in the industry consider the best poker tournament coverage on the web. Part of agreement for the WSOP was that they translate in "near real time" the coverage into the 23 languages used by PokerNews.com.---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 04:24, 23 June 2009 (UTC) Poker news has a similar agreement with the Aussie Millions tournament.---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 05:14, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
While I think this source is OK, I'll try to find a different one for this.---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 22:14, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Updated with more reliable source.---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 22:50, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What is the replacement source? Dabomb87 (talk) 16:15, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Pokernews Also, this is common tale... one that could actually be argued to be common knowledge in the poker world.---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 04:14, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Most magazines/companies have guidelines on how to be published. I mean, you can write articles for written articles for professional journals or Newspapers or whatnot. Having a criteria for submitting articles does not disqualify a source.---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 22:14, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
One other thing to note on the page, There is no set rate of payment for articles. Payment will be determined on a case-by-case basis. Payment will be issued via check only, without exception, at the end of the month in which an article was published. They are not asking for people to write for free ala a wiki, they are looking to publish reviewed content. The articles have to pass the mustard. Furthermore, the fact that they don't offer a set rate is a sign of a more credible magazine. I know some pages will pay X dollars per article and those are generally a little more dubious in nature.---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 03:03, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ultimate bet is one of the biggest online casinos. I consider it a reliable, albeit not a top tier source.---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 22:14, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Replaced with ESPN and PokerListings sources.---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 03:55, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The hendonmob is one of the most respected databases of poker results.---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 22:14, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
A quick search on "according to the hendon mob" will generate over 130K worth of hits. The Hendon Mob was involved in a legal case a few years ago concerning their data base. It was with either Poker Listing or Poker Pages, but it is generally considered to be one of the more complete repositories of poker results available. MSNBC relies upon them as does [AllIn Magazine and do just about all of the various poker cites (fulltilt, ultimate bet, pokernews, poker listing, pokerstars) and even the established blog writers (Daniel Negraneau, Barry Greenstein, Andy Bloch.) There are only a handful of databases reporting results, and the HendonMob is one of them. Poker Pages is another, but their data base isn't as complete---especially from older tournaments. Cardplayer also has one, but from what it looks like HendonMob/Cardplayer feed each other. For example, looking at the results for the 1991 SBOP, both websites have the same holes in their results. Most notably, neither one has results for the Deuce to Seven Lowball event. If you look at the 89 results, both are missing results for 4 of the first five events---but the Hedon Mob has the winner of one of those five, while Cardplayer does not. Earlier events are better covered by the Hendon Mob (see the 1981 event.)---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 18:51, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK, should be fine. Dabomb87 (talk) 20:17, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is from a subsidairy of Party Poker itself, and as it is referencing a campaign by PP, it is a primary source. But I added a second source.---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 22:14, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Poker Listings is an established source. Zero doubt in my mind about it.---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 22:14, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Poker Listing is one of the more respected online websites for poker information. Poker listing staff] are full time employees travelling and writing for Poker Listings. In addition, they have an array of high caliber "featured writers" whose reputations are beyond reproach. Nolan Dalla is notable enough that I have the intention of writing an article on him one of these days. He's been the official press officer for the WSOP for years and can be seen working the floor at WSOP events. (When Hal Lubarsky was eliminated last year, Nolla was the person who gave a short speech commemorating the achievement.) Aurthur Reber is another big name for his published works. As is Gary Wise (who does Poker Listing's Hand of the Day) and is ESPN's poker expert. I don't know if it means anything, but if you goto GoogleNews, it is not uncommon to see pokerlistings.com as the reporting website. NBC has cited PokerListings.com. Here is an independent (although I don't know how reliable) source calling Pokerlistings the world's largest online poker guide. Another source gave a review, What sets Pokerlistings.com apart from the jungle of online sites promoting poker sites is the sheer amount of relevant and qualitative poker information they offer. Pokerlistings routinely gets interviews with the games top stars---moreso than you would expect from a website that is not respected in the field. In short, Pokerlistings is one of the premier online sources for poker information.---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 03:47, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK. Dabomb87 (talk) 03:57, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Resolved comments from Giants2008
*Oppose – Sorry, but I see too many prose problems at the present time, in addition to the source questions raised earlier.
  • Jack Strauss note: "A saying that means as long as you have a chip and a chair you have a chance." Sentence fragment with a lot of repetition from the previous sentence.
  • Fred Ferris: Space after the dollar sign in $ 10,000 Deuce to Seven Draw. Check elsewhere for these.
  • "Reese was best known for his cash game." If it wasn't literally his game, try adding "play" at the end.
  • Berry Johnston note: "He has cashed in at least one WSOP event since 1982." I would hope so, if he's a Hall of Famer. Is this supposed to say he did so each year.
  • Support - made some fixes, but it looks good —Chris! ct 01:58, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from -- SRE.K.A.L.24[c]

  • Why is there an image of the 2007 Main Event WSOP Bracelet on the article? -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 22:28, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The WSOP winnings aren't sorted properly. Also, why not use live winnings instead? -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 23:45, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I fixed the 80,000 one that was appearing out of order. I can't figure out why the 0's are showing up at the end as compared to the beginning when sorting. Any ideas?
As for why I'm using the WSOP totals there are two reasons. First, the Poker Hall of Fame is now directly tied to the WSOP. Both were acquired in 2004 by Harrah's Casino. Second, there is a little more authority in that total. While there are other sources that present life time earnings, there can be significant discrepencies between the amounts. According to various sources here is Doyle Brunson's lifetime tournament winnings:
The Hendon Mob = $5,819,350.
Cardplayer = $5,305,447.
Poker pages = $5,215,256.
Bluff Magazine = $5,065,582.
PokerListings = $5,049,331.
Each of those sources is a reliable source, but because they have different criteria on what counts towards the lifetime earnings and because earlier results are not as well recorded, there are discrepencies. By using the WSOP Lifetime earnings, we have an authoritative figure; and in this case the one that is now affiliated with the Hall of Fame. If the Hall wasn't under the WSOP I would probably use one of the other sources for lifetime earnings, but as is I think the WSOP is the best option.---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 00:40, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
See this comment by Scorpion regarding the wayward sorting. Dabomb87 (talk) 03:57, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK, sorting fixed. Dabomb87 (talk) 15:32, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't get why Dabomb87 commented on an FLC on my talk page, when he already knows I don't like it, but ehh...I'll support once everything has been resolved. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 19:48, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think I've got everything covered to this point.---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 23:20, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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