Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of freshwater islands in Scotland/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Dabomb87 23:48, 13 May 2010 [1].

List of freshwater islands in Scotland[edit]

List of freshwater islands in Scotland (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Ben MacDui 12:42, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Long-suffering FLC overseers will be pleased to hear that we are getting close to the end of the series "Lists of Scottish islands" - there are only one or at most two to go (unless someone starts generating large numbers of articles about crannogs). The current candidate largely conforms to previous lists although there are differences from the offshore islands, as noted, specifically in the OS treatment of freshwater island names. Ben MacDui 12:42, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I found no serious problems in the article, except that the last sentence in 'In rivers' section should have a citation. Ruslik_Zero 16:45, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks.
Citations now added. Ben MacDui 08:07, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 10:23, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*Perhaps a bit picky, but I'd prefer to see a consistency in the usage of the term "freshwater" or "fresh water"...
Done
  • north-west vs southeast...
Done
  • Larger islands table - what's the colour coding mean? And note WP:ACCESS, don't use just colour to denote a particular property.
They indicated rank, but as this was apparently not obvious I have removed them.
  • Interestingly, the pdf you link to in that table for populations has "Innischonan" rather than "Innis Chonan". Since that's a Scottish government source, should we be using the Scottish government nomenclature? It's not the only one...
Both Gaelic spellings and Scots/English language spellings of Gaelic names are rather variable. Having started off by rendering the former in phonetic anglicised ways the OS are now reverting to usage of full Gaelic including accents. They now have "Innis Chonain". In short, there is no "correct" English spelling and I don't think the Registrar General's is any better than anyone else's.
  • "are said to be " sounds a little dubious to me. This is supposed to be definitive. Who did the "saying" in any case?!
Now says "There may be up to". See Note 2 for sources.
  • aka - yuck. prose it.
Done
  • "new islands that would previously have been small eminences" sorry to be difficult, but what constitutes an island as opposed to a "small eminence"?
Prior to the flooding the area would have been dry land with small eminences, which after the dam was constructed became islands.
  • Just a query, why is Fion Loch not Loch Fion like all the other lochs?
It probably means "white lake", in contrast the Dubh Loch (black lake) at its eastern end. There may be some Gaelic rule involved, but I don't know for sure. (I now a man who does if you are curious).
  • Sortable table so wikilinks need to be repeated because there's no guarantee that the wikilinked instance occurs first after a re-sort.
Doing... and done.
  • "and as as result Scotland's" typo.
Done
  • "No part of Scotland is more than about 80 kilometres (50 mi) from the sea and as as result Scotland's rivers are neither very wide nor long (although Scotland has many substantial salt water estuaries called firths). These are islands in fresh or brackish water." not referenced.
Not the best reference, but this is surprisingly obscure info. See also below in reply to Rambo's Revenge.
  • Several notes appear to be unreferenced.
I added to to note 1. The others are either comments that I don't think need referenced, or link to the Ordnance Survey map that provides the information.
  • Refs 6, 8, 14 appear to be notes, not references.
Per the above I consider the OS maps that the links are provided for, are a reference. I can change 'em if you prefer.

The Rambling Man (talk) 16:56, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks - first and second pass of replies above. Ben MacDui 09:02, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Any reason why Loch Leven Castle island is the lead image? The caption gives us no real understanding of why it's more significant (if it is) than, say, the biggest one i.e. Inchmurrin?
Firstly, our larger freshwater islands do not seem to be provided with especially good images and this seemed to me to be the best one. Secondly, with the map of L. Lomond below it, I felt that that covered the more generic issue of the largest loch with the most islands and largest island. I have added an Inchmurrin image lower done. (Inchm. is on the map if you look closely.)
I have also added "where Mary, Queen of Scots was imprisoned in 1567" to the caption. Hopefully "done".
  • Do you have refs for those derivations of names?
Not a single reference, but I will add those that come to hand asap.
Done.
  • "several former islands" - can you say how they became "former"?
Done.
  • What makes "www.loch-lomond.me.uk" a reliable source?
When dealing with very small islands, the subject matter is obscure and citations sometimes hard to come by. I have no reasons to dispute its accuracy but I will have a further look.
No mention that I can see in Murray and Pullar. There are any number of similar tourist-related guides that would appear to be copying one another and are hardly more deserving of the WP:RS accolade. .goxplore.net is probably the best of the bunch. I have now added this plus a couple more. In digging a little deeper into this it becomes pretty clear that the figure of 60 is being repeated without any source other than Nennius in 800AD ever being brought to bear. www.loch-lomond.me.uk is still there as providing evidence that some islets may appear at lower water levels, but this is not in the main text. There are some interesting looking archeaological surveys at lochlomondtrossachs.org.uk but they are not free, or downloadable and may or may not provide anything better on this specific issue. Loch Lomond National Park does not seem to have anything about this subject, on the web at least, which is quite surprising. In short, I think I have exhausted most obvious avenues, the text is more robust as a result and the question remains re loch-lomond.me.uk. It is not vital and could be removed along with relevant statement about water levels if need be.


Resolved comments from Rambo's Revenge (talk · contribs)
Oppose.
  • This is List of freshwater islands in Scotland. The term specifically excludes seawater and brackish water, yet in the "In Rivers" section, you state that you include brackish water islands in the section. Is this the case for the other sections and, if not, why not? Or alternatively these brackish ones need specifically removing or denoting in some way.
Islands generally in freshwater that are reached by high tides would only be in rivers. I can't think of a freshwater loch that is occasionally brackish (that would make it an estuary). I do not know for sure how many but there are only a small number of them - Inch Geck in the Ythan and Alloa Inch would be examples. Freshwater as such is not brackish, but that does not mean that a predominantly "freshwater island" cannot occasionally be reached by the tides. If you look at the above examples they are clearly in rivers rather than offshore and I don't believe it would make sense to have a separate list for them, but I can easily check through and indicate which ones are below the mean high water spring tide line.
I don't know the relevence of the last point. Presumably that would denote it as freshwater or brackish. If that is the case, it sounds like a good idea. I'm really no expert on the complexities, I'm just trying to ensure the correct terminology is being used. RR 18:47, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it does mean that the highest tides would reach this point on a monthly basis. I have commenced the exercise.
Done.
  • Not a fan of the decorative colour. If it is necessary enough (it isn't in my opinion due to the sortabile nature of the table) then WP:COLOUR cannot be the only way to convey information.
The sort conveyed the information too but I have removed this apparently unhelpful method (see also above).
  • "No part of Scotland is more than about 80 kilometres (50 mi)" more than about is awkward. How much is about? If there is somewhere that is 82 km then just say "No part ... is more than 85 km" away.
Not the best reference, but this is surprisingly obscure info. The ref says "about", which given the very complex nature of the west coast (I believe the second most indented in the world after Norway) is perhaps understandable. I would make it a definitive "45 miles" but see Centre points of the United Kingdom. The subject is not well-researched I fear.
Okay, I get where you are coming from. Starting from this, I entered the co-ordinates 56.819296, -4.204 in this radial distance tool. With the radius set to 50 miles, a circle from any point reaches sea. It is therefore safe to assume everywhere is 50 miles. This brings me back to my initial contention. It was not (so much) the lack of reference. It was the imprecise use of "about". Every part is either closer than 50 miles or not. I agree that the distance is (more likely) somewhere around 45 mi. But without a reference, we should maintain precision and say no more than 50 miles away. RR 20:51, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done.
  • Eilean na Comhairle.[Note 6] Why the full stop?
Removed
  • "Eilean a' Faof, Eilean Mhic Fail Eilean Mòr, Tearead, Tearead Thioram, Tearead Fhliuch" is there a missing comma somewhere in the middle.
Fixed
Not sure what the alternative is short of delinking the island. The castle is its main claim to fame and it hardly merits an article in in its own right.
My point is if that Eilean Mór is notable, then it should be redlinked (or you could make a stub for it). Otherwise it shouldn't be linked. RR 18:47, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Given that Eilean Mòr is only really notable for the castle, this is a bit of a conundrum. If I can think of something worth saying I'll create a stub.
I have removed the link from the island and added it to the "See also section".
  • "each of which have played an important part in Scottish history. " What is important? Citation, perhaps?
Perhaps this is over stating the case. I have added references into the text here, but "each of which have had a role to play in Scottish history." might be closer to the mark. Done.
  • "although it is also used for terra firma surrounded by marsh". Does terra firma mean surrounded by marsh? If so you are missing punctuation between the two entities.
Terra firma just means "dry land".
Okay I didn't know that. Will I be the only one? Probably not. Suggest linking (to disambig or wiktionary) for those as ignorant as myself. :) RR 18:47, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done i.e. linked to Wiktionary.
  • Are the redlinks more notable than the unlinked Lochs?
In my view they are the most likely to have their own article next, but I confess this is a fairly subjective judgement based on their size, location and fame.
That is okay, as long as it is not random. I have no concept of what would cause a loch to pass notability criteria, but if you say they are the biggest and more notable ones then I'll take your word for it. RR 18:47, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rambo's Revenge (talk) 17:56, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. I have made a start and will return asap. Ben MacDui 09:02, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One more thing. To what do the (2) and (3) refer. Whatever it is needs clarifying. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 20:51, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Added "Numbers in brackets indicate that there are (2) or (3) islands of the same name in the body of water referred to." as a note.
Images
  • For those interested I can state that the images are of suitable use for wikipedia. Most are from the Geograph project, a couple others were PD which I have reviewed. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 22:46, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - There is a citation needed tag in the In rivers section.—Chris!c/t 20:05, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yup - it was placed there by a reviewer. I will get to that asap. Ben MacDui 09:02, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Now fixed. Ben MacDui 08:07, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - ok, looks good now—Chris!c/t 00:00, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support beautifully illustrated! great work. Dincher (talk) 20:19, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]


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