Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of First Ladies of the United States

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Scorpion0422 19:20, 27 January 2009 [1].

List of First Ladies of the United States[edit]

Fully referenced list of the official First Ladies, according to the White House and National First Ladies' Library. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 03:30, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by -- SRE.K.Annoyomous.L.24[c]

  • Tables could be sortable.
  • I had considered this, but then figured that the numbered column and the tenure date would be in the same order, as would the names of the First Lady and President if sorted by last name. Some had more than one religion, such as when they took on their husbands -- sorting wouldn't work well on that column because it would only sort the first one. So I thought that in this case it probably wouldn't work well on this list.
  • Protestant on Michelle Obama's row should be linked.
  • Done

-- SRE.K.Annoyomous.L.24 review me 04:10, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for taking a look. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 04:59, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • Big problem: both Helen Taft and Ellen Wilson are listed as number 28, so everyone after that should be one higher. And in the lead it should say there are 44 first ladies and 45 first ladyships, with Michelle Obama being number 46.
done
  • It doesn't need to be removed, but I do not see the reason to include religion in the table.
Religion is a big thing in the US. The religious beliefs of their leaders seems to be a big deal. The White House and First Ladies' Library also gives the religion of each First Lady, too.. it just seemed appropriate.
  • The table needs to be reconfigured to be sortable. This includes listing the two presidents with two wifes twice in different cells and modifying the headings.
I don't think sorting would work well for this list. See my reasoning above, at my reply to SRE.K.A.L.24. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 04:59, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have centered the tables, but you need to remove style="text-align:center"| from the dates within the cells.
done
  • Explain or link what nee means.
done
    • Overall a very good and well-referenced list. Reywas92Talk 16:57, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 04:59, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Wait! You fixed the numbering in the table, but not in the lead. It should say "there have been 44 First Ladies and 45 First Ladyships...his wife Michelle Obama will become the forty-sixth First Lady" Reywas92Talk 21:33, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed! Thanks for spotting that! Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 22:45, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
And the written-out number: "Michelle Obama will become the forty-sixth First Lady" Reywas92Talk 22:50, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I would like to thank MatthewEdwards for his dedication over the last few days to improving this list. I created the article a few months back and I'm happy to see it up for FL. Just a quick comment on the images, some of the first ladies are represented by their official painted portraits and some are represented by photographs. In my opinion, it should be standardized. I had a discussion at Talk:List of Presidents of the United States where they recommended using portraits because the early first ladies could not have photographs taken. Happyme22 (talk) 18:55, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've changed the images. Thanks for your comments, Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 04:59, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support I see there was a lengthy discussion about the images. I'm satisfied if others are satisifed, however. Nice work, Matthewedwards! Best, Happyme22 (talk) 20:23, 23 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support good job —Chris! ct 20:11, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 20:06, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - It would be nice if a picture of Martha Skelton Jefferson could be found and added to article to ensure that a picture of every first lady is presented. Not necessary for FL but it would be nice. Remember (talk) 14:26, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree it would, but neither the White House or the First Ladies Library have images of her. She was married to him 19 years before he became President. As far as I am aware there are no sketches, paintings or engravings of her. Findagrave.com has a picture, http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=6654871, but I don't know if that's based off another bona fide image or just the artist's impression. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 20:06, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That's cool then. I support this list (but we should all be on the lookout for a image of Martha Skelton Jefferson so we could include it in the future). Remember (talk) 18:50, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments by BomBom

Comments A nice list overall, but:

  • The religion column should definitely be removed. It is totally irrelevant and takes up too much space. Just because the White House mentions religion doesn't mean Wikipedia should follow suit. The List of Presidents doesn't mention religion, and I'm not aware of any other politics-related FL that currently features a "Religion" column so prominently. There are individual articles about each first lady precisely in order to include such secondary information. Moreover, the information in the column isn't useful either. It's not as if there's been a lot of religious diversity in the White House. All of the first ladies have been Protestants, with the exception of one Catholic. I think this can be easily summarized in the lead. If you really want to keep the info, then you can create a new Religious affiliations of United States First Ladies article, similar to the Religious affiliations of United States Presidents article. The current list should contain general info, and not delve into such irrelevant detail.
  • Well, there were other religions too, but I've removed it because almost every reviewer has said its not necessary. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email)
  • The first and third paragraphs of the lead definitely need inline citations.
  • I'll see what I can find. I don't think most of the third will, because it's just going over what the body of the article (the table) says. WP:LEDE says that sort of stuff doesn't need citing. The rest I'll get started on. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email)
  • In the infobox, the term length is highly misleading. It gives the impression that no woman can serve as first lady more than 8 years, when in fact there is nothing that theoretically prevents a woman from marrying several presidents and thus serving as first lady several times. Try to rephrase this, or even remove the "term of length" field altogether.
  • The "Tenure" column should be divided into 2 columns. It would make things much clearer. Try to change the term "tenure" too, since it's not an official post. Something like "Entered the White House" or "Became First Lady" and "Left the White House" or "Ceased to Be First Lady" would be much better.
  • I think it should be mentioned in the lead that Michelle Obama will become the first African-American first lady, and that Hillary Clinton is the only First Lady to have had a significant political career of her own. This information is far more important and relevant than their respective religions.
  • Try to have someone do an image review. Although most of these images are probably PD in the US, many of them simply cite the White House as their source without providing a specific link. This is needed to allow for confirmation that an image is indeed available on the website.
  • There's a formatting error in reference 3.

That's it for now. Regards. BomBom (talk) 22:06, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review! Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 04:15, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Even though you haven't added the info about Hillary Clinton and Michelle Obama. I definitely think that a former First Lady becoming Secretary of State and an African-American entering the White House in the same week are notable events that should be mentioned in the lead. BomBom (talk) 01:10, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Images - Now resolved, Rambo's Revenge (talk) 18:02, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Sorry to throw a spanner in the works but it is unclear whether the portraits of the First Ladies are infact free. On commons two have been tagged for deletion 1, 2. There has been an unresolved lengthy discussion at Wikipedia:Possibly unfree images/US government portraits about if such portraits are free. Hillary's portrait has infact previously been deleted after discussion at her articles FAC. Since this discussion on my talk page, I am no longer sure that the Hillary Clinton portrait (which I uploaded) is free. Similar reasonings may apply to the other portraits. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 00:56, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Update: The two portraits I mentioned above have both been deleted from commons. To be the safest you can with the images I would suggest removing all the portraits of First Ladies who died after January 1, 1923 or who's portraits were painted after that (if the date is known) and replace them with PD images where possible. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 00:25, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to go over the images myself and then I'll ask an image person, too. Thanks! Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 04:15, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I was the one who nominated the pictures for deletion. Why not just use their official photos? Those are PD. — BQZip01 — talk 06:09, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I assumed that because they appear at the First Lady entries at http://www.whitehouse.gov that they were official portraits. Not to worry. Could you help me in locating actual official portrait paintings or photos, please? Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 07:41, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I request that the nominator be permitted a little extra time to solve the problems of the deleted images. — BQZip01 — talk 06:10, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I appreciate that. I was becoming a little disheartened! Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 07:41, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have update the images. Hopefully they are all okay now. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 04:59, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Looks fine to me now. — BQZip01 — talk 04:05, 18 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am happy with how the image issue has been resolved. I will not cap the discussion so any unaware reviewers can see why portraits are no longer used. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 18:02, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Due to an extensive image review below by BomBom, I have reconsidered my position. Due to my lack of experience with images, I should have originally waited and let someone else review them thoroughly. Apologies, Rambo's Revenge (talk) 00:20, 18 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support, I am now happy with all aspects of the list. This FLC generated a fair bit of work for Matthew, but instead of removing the images with issues he fixed or sought out replacement images instead. Good job! Rambo's Revenge (talk) 15:11, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support, all issues resolved. Dabomb87 (talk) 16:53, 17 January 2009 (UTC) [reply]
Resolved issues, Dabomb87 (talk)

Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)

  • "First Lady is not an elected position, carries no official duties, and receives no salary."-->First Lady is not an elected position; it carries no official duties, and receives no salary.
  • Done
  • "There is a strong tradition against the First Lady holding outside employment while occupying the office." The noun + -ing sentence structure is grammatically awkward. This is my suggestion, although it may change the sentence's meaning: "Traditionally, First Lady does not hold outside employment while occupying the office.
  • Done
  • "The Office of the First Lady of the United States is accountable to the First Lady of the United States for her to carry out her duties as hostess of the White House and is also in charge of all social and ceremonial events of the White House." Long and very confusing sentence.
  • Done
  • "The First Lady has her own staff that includes"-->The First Lady has her own staff, including...
  • Done
  • "There have been 43 First Ladies and 44 First Ladyships, according to the White House and the National First Ladies' Library.-->According to the White House and the National First Ladies' Library, there have been 43 First Ladies and 44 First Ladyships.
  • Done
  • "both remarried while being the incumbent President-->"both remarried during their presidential tenures" or something like that.
  • Done
  • "a gold coin is issued bearing"-->a gold coin is issued that bears
  • Done

Dabomb87 (talk) 18:57, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the review. All cocerns have been addressed. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 04:07, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sources look good. Dabomb87 (talk) 18:57, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support with condition - can you change the prose of President James Buchanan was a lifelong bachelor whose niece, Harriet Lane, served as First Lady. She is the only person not married to a President who is considered an official First Lady. by combining sentences? miranda 00:06, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Image review by BomBom

Image review The image issue certainly hasn't been resolved. I have thus decided to do an extensive review myself. The following images are still problematic:

    • File:Abigail Adams.jpg No source is provided. There is thus no way to verify whether the information provided on the image's description page is accurate.
    • File:Elizabeth Monroe.jpg, File:Letitia Tyler.jpg Are you really sure the images were created by a National Park Service employee? Just because they're available on their website doesn't mean they have been created by them. Moreover, in the absence of a specific link, how should we know if the images are indeed available on their website? Try to find who the painter was, and use PD-Art instead.
  • Done Monroe's. I had to remove Tyler's picture from the list. I can't find any information about the creation date or artist, and no other image to replace it. :( Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 08:22, 18 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • File:Demott-rachel.jpg No explanation as to why PD-Art is being used. A reliable source and the painter's death date are needed.
    • File:Margaret Taylor.gif SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM THE ARTICLE AND IMMEDIATELY DELETED FROM COMMONS. The website from which it was taken explicitly states that "This image of Margaret Taylor is privately owned; it is not public domain. It may not be copied, adapted, altered or in any other way used, or it will be found to be in violation of U.S. copyright law. Violaters will be prosecuted to the fullest extent by law."
      • Note: It is claimed the source exhibits copyfraud, due to the mathematical impossibilities of the author not being deceased already for 70 years. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 00:16, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • This claim was added to the image's description page after I marked it for deletion on Commons. The problem is that the website in question is that of the National First Ladies' Library, i.e. a reliable source. The people working there aren't a bunch of Flickr users, i.e. they are unlikely to be illiterate when it comes to copyright issues. If they say the image is copyrighted, they probably know what they're talking about. Their claim seems all the more credible since it isn't made for every single image on the website, but only for this particular one. The mere fact that the author died more than 70 years ago does not automatically render the image PD in the US, and it is for this very reason that the PD-Old template is to be deprecated soon on Commons. I would thus suggest removing this image from the article and replacing it with a free one if available. BomBom (talk) 01:17, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • File:Edith Wilson cropped 2.jpg, File:Beth Truman cropped.jpg Again, no author and no source. No explanation as to why PD-USGov is being used.
  • done and done
    • File:Barbara Bush post presidential portrait.jpg Unclear copyright status. The link says it is a post-presidential portrait, which means that PD-USGov is probably an incorrect tag. Moreover, the website of the George Bush Presidential Library has a copyright notice in the lower right-hand corner. Therefore, it is not clear if images hosted on the website are free.

All other images are OK. Sorry for being so picky, but extra care should be taken when using over 40 images in a single article so as to avoid legal problems. Regards. BomBom (talk) 00:10, 18 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. I'd rather it be perfect than not. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 02:43, 18 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All images should have been taken care of now. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 05:22, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment All image issues have been resolved. All images used are now confirmed to be free. BomBom (talk) 01:10, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - The White House has kindly redesigned their site; the ref links to the First Ladies no longer work. I am working to get them all back. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 20:34, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 21:15, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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