Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna of Russia/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 00:51, 24 November 2010 [1].

Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna of Russia[edit]

Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna of Russia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): DrKiernan (talk) 10:09, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

She was the sister of Tsar Nicholas II and was "the last Grand Duchess of Imperial Russia". Her life started in a massive palace, and ended in a small apartment above a shop in East Toronto.

User:AJ24 is major contributor, and I hope they will join the nomination. DrKiernan (talk) 10:09, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thoughts

(note: I have not looked at possible copyvio, plagiarism, or sourcing concerns)

  1. Being unfamiliar with the naming conventions of Russian royalty, should Romanova be included in her name? I understand that the patronymic is used in Russia as a surname; is the convention about surnames different for Russian royalty as opposed to other European royalty?
  2. I find the use of citations in the lead to be odd. Is that information not covered and thus cited in the article? If it's not, my understanding is that it shouldn't be in the lead. Am I incorrect?
  3. "There were 21 fatalities among the casualties." seems awkward to me, as 'casualty' (I think) is usually used colloquially to mean killed. Something along the lines of "Many were wounded, 21 were killed" would work I think. Inelegant, obviously, just trying to get my meaning across.
  4. I think you may have some overlinking issues; it seems as though you have linked the Dowager Empress multiple times. It's the only one that stood out. (I think GD Michael may be repeatedly linked, too).

Those were the only things that jumped out at me. And thanks for including born to the purple, a phrase with which I was previously unfamiliar. I got a bit distracted following that rabbit hole.. → ROUX ₪ 16:11, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, on the specific points:
  1. I'm going off Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility)#Other royals, which says the surname should be mentioned in the first line of the article but not in the article title.
  2. Yes, I think you may right there. I've removed the references from the lead and duplicated the material in the body of the article.
  3. Changed to the simpler "There were 21 fatalities." The wounded are mentioned in the next sentence anyway.
  4. I tend not to worry if the repeats of the link are in different sections, but only actively remove them if they duplicate a link earlier in the section or link a common term. DrKiernan (talk) 18:46, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

... and was probably worth more. seems a bit weasely. Can you bit a bit explicit about who made this opinion? 110.32.20.68 (talk) 05:27, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Changed to ... and was mostly held as stock and bonds. Her material possessions were appraised at 350 Canadian dollars in total, which biographer Patricia Phenix considered an underestimate. DrKiernan (talk) 11:34, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments:

  • Why is Vorres cited as "Vorres (2001)" while Phenix is just "Phenix", Massie just "Massie", etc?
  • Refs 109 and 117 should be more fully formatted, with titles and publisher information.
  • Publisher locations missing from some references.

Otherwise the sources and citations look OK. I have noted the major reliance on just two sources, but this is probably OK since both are relatively recent biographies of the subject. Brianboulton (talk) 20:08, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks; the two main sources are the only book-length biographies of Olga that I know of. Although Olga's own autobiographical memoirs, edited by her great-grandson Paul Kulikovsky, were re-published earlier this year, but I was under the impression that we're supposed to use third-party sources if they are available in preference to autobiographical ones. If you want to check reliability and comprehensiveness with online sources, then you could read the sugary biography offered by Olga Kulikovsky-Romanoff at [2] or the short and snazzy one offered by Bob Aitchison at [3]. In answer to your three specific points:
  • Because I'm using the revised 2001 fourth edition not the original 1964 version; however, it is a simple matter to remove the year if it is unnecessary.
  • 109 is published by the Bank of Canada; the title of the page for 117 is the same as the publisher
  • That was deliberate because Massie's publishers give four different addresses in London, Victoria, Auckland and South Africa, and Phenix's give five different addresses in Toronto, London, New York, Victoria and Auckland. However, I have chosen the first listed in each case, which seems to correspond with the country of manufacture. DrKiernan (talk) 20:52, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dab/EL check - No dabs, no link problems. --PresN 23:16, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I read through a few days ago, and again today, and nothing jumped at me needing to fix in the prose. One sourcing concern, you need a publisher for current ref 117 (Ballerup Museum). I ran the article through Corenbot and Earwig, and no violations show up there. I'm sure that there could be prose niggles found, but it read fine to me. Interesting article on a very interesting lady. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:32, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks; the publisher and page name are the same. DrKiernan (talk) 09:59, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: Excellent article generally. It covers the subject thoroughly and reads very well. Just a few points and I'll be happy to support.

  • "In 1901, she married Duke Peter Alexandrovich of Oldenburg, who was privately considered by family and friends to be homosexual." Is "considered" the correct word, or should it be "believed"?
  • "were murdered by communists" Could this be tightened? It reads like a random killing by a group of people who happened to be communists. I think some suggestion of the "official" nature of the killings is called for here.
  • "She met Anna Anderson, the best-known Anastasia impostor, in a highly publicized visit to Berlin in 1925." During a highly publicized visit?
  • Train crash: this seems to be quite detailed and obviously would have been a big thing for her, but does Olga's part in it warrant a paragraph?
  • "The marriage, announced in May, was unexpected by many..." Needs to be either "was widely unexpected" or "was not expected by many".
  • "Olga assumed that Peter was pushed into proposing by his ambitious mother" Maybe change "assumed" as it was used two sentences previously.
  • "and was deeply trusted by both the Tsar and Tsarina" Not sure about deeply trusted. I'd prefer simply "trusted" or "highly regarded".
  • "and in 1913, while visiting England, she suffered a nervous breakdown.[43] On the way back to Russia, through Denmark, she recuperated.[44]" Second sentence seems a little abrupt and disjointed.
  • "On 1 August 1914, Olga's regiment, the Akhtyrsky Hussars, appeared at an Imperial Review before the Grand Duchess and the Tsar at Krasnoe Selo. Just a few days later, World War I began." What is the relevance of the Review? And the second sentence seems redundant; why not begin the next sentence "After the First World War began..."
  • "Only the Dowager Empress Marie, Olga's brother-in-law Grand Duke Alexander, four officers of the Akhtyrsky Regiment, two fellow nurses from the hospital in Kiev and the officiating priest attended the service on 16 November 1916 in the Kievo-Vasilievskaya Church on Triokhsviatitelskaya (Three Saints Street) in Kiev." Long sentence; it took me a few goes to work out what it meant.
  • "The fate of Olga's childhood confidant and brother Michael, the emperor's supposed successor, was uncertain. It was unknown to her at the time, but he had been assassinated near Perm on 13 June 1918." I don't think both of these sentences are necessary: either one would do, or a combination such as "Unknown to her, Olga's childhood confidant and brother Michael, the emperor's supposed successor, had been assassinated near Perm on 13 June 1918."
  • "In a rented five-roomed farmhouse there, their second son, Guri Nikolaevich, was born on 23 April 1919." The subject of the previous sentence is Timofei Yatchik, which makes "their" ambiguous. Also, "there, their" does not read too well.
  • Did Kulikovsky go to Denmark with Olga? It is not clear in the text.
  • "Olga said: ...in 1918 or 1919. If Mrs. Anderson ..." Why does the quote begin with a sentence fragment giving dates?
  • "Emigration to Canada": This section is a bit listy; Four paragraphs begin "In [year]" or "By [year]". The 1951 paragraph is a little short and some of the information in the section is a little trivial: "former officers and members of the Akhtyrsky Regiment celebrated the 300th anniversary of its foundation at Olga's home" I wonder how important this is.
  • "Legacy": Not sure this is a great section title as it is mainly about her paintings. Is this really the most important thing she did? I would have thought more about her personality or her work with Russian emigres may have been more important. The end of the section gets a bit listy again, listing where her work was and who owned it. And if her paintings are important, it would be good to have some independent assessment, rather than her family and biographer.
  • Given that Nicholas was not particularly supported by his family generally, is there anything about Olga's relations with other family members before 1917? --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:21, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the detailed review. Changes made[4]; summarized below.
  • Changed to "believed"
  • Changed to "shot by revolutionaries"
  • Removed "highly publicized"
  • Coverage of Borki reduced slightly be removal of trivia like the pudding and the time
  • Changed to "not expected".
  • Changed to "suspected"
  • Removed "deeply trusted"
  • "On the way back to Russia..." removed, and replaced with sentence that links with the following paragraph
  • Sentences merged
  • Overcomplicated sentence broken up
  • Changed to your suggestion: "Unknown to her..."
  • Rewritten to remove "there, their"
  • Kulikovsky added
  • Fragment removed
  • If the short paragraph is removed, there's a leap from 1948 to 1952.
  • I couldn't find any truly independent assessment of her work. I'm happy to add it if some is found.
  • Her relationship with her parents, brothers and nieces are covered. I'm not aware of any other notable associations before 1917. DrKiernan (talk) 09:59, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Seems fine now. I still think a few parts are a little listy, but this is not enough to prevent my support. Well done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 11:21, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Excellent read, just some minor nitpicks below: Sasata (talk) 20:46, 17 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support On prose; I haven't checked sources for accuracy or other recent concerns (no access to them). Sasata (talk) 19:07, 18 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • how old is she/what year is it in the infobox picture?
  • "… modest, even Spartan." I don't think it needs capitalizing, as an adjective
  • link Lent
  • endeavour, watercolour, labour, neighbours - British spelling not consistent with Am. English spelling of subsidized, recognized, hospitalized; similarly, the regional variant you choose will determine if "practiced" is simply a spelling mistake or used incorrectly as a verb
  • "Olga and Kulikovsky began to see each other more often" more often than what? The last sentence simply stated that they met.
  • link Epiphany, hemophiliac
  • how about increasing the Russian imperial family image size … it's pretty small now, so much so that the lengthy caption takes up an equal area
  • "… and decided to make for the Caucasus …" suggest using a different verb here, I think "make" used in this way is colloquial
  • "...she did not strike me" needs space after ellipse, says MOS
  • link troopship
  • is there a more specific date available for her husband's death in 1958?
  • "See also, Massie, p. 171." page citation aren't followed by fullstops in any other instances
  • "quoted in von Nidda, p.168" space after p. for consistency with others
  • "quoted in Phenix, p. 237–238" p.->pp.
  • ref 103 is "Vorres (2001), p. 225" why is the year given here and not of the dozens of others preceding it?
  • Thanks for such a careful reading, particularly of the notes. Changes made [5]; detailed below. DrKiernan (talk) 18:30, 18 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The date of the image is unknown; most Bain pictures fall between 1900 and 1930.
  • My dictionary spells it with a capital only.
  • Linked
  • The article follows Canadian spelling, which favors -our and -ize endings. BTW, -ize is also used in British english, and is favored by publishers such as the OUP.
  • Ah, thanks for the link. I thought I had that Brit/Eng spelling thing figured out, but there's more nuances I guess (technically, being Canadian, I suppose I should have known this... I'll blame the public education system :) ). Sasata (talk) 19:07, 18 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "more often" removed
  • Linked
  • Enlarged image
  • "make for" removed
  • Space added
  • Linked
  • He died on 11 August. As this is given in Nikolai Kulikovsky, I'd prefer not to repeat it here.
  • Reference formatting corrected
  • Ealdgyth says above that she ran the article through CorenBot and Earwig. DrKiernan (talk) 10:09, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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