Talk:Yang Kyoungjong/Archive 1

Not a Hoax but there are serious problems: Where did his name come from?

This issue relates to this article and cited information from this "SBS Korean Documentary".. Click the blue box to play the documentary. Although it is in Korean, vital timestamps (listed below) are in English and crucial to the overall article.

QUESTION: Where is there proof in Stephen Ambrose's book that he died in Illinois in 1992? I literally read his book because of this. The only passage where Stephen Ambrose mentions the Korean soldiers (there were 4 Koreans apparently) is on page 34. There is NO MENTION OF HIS NAME. LT Robert Brewer captured them and assumed they were sent back to Korea where they would end up "fighting [...] against the US Army, or with it" (p. 34). The SBS Documentary goes to New Orleans where his recordings of the 101ABN/506PIR soldiers are kept. LT Brewer's cassette tape is conspicuously missing. The exact moment when this is revealed and the curator's response is in English. 6:06 of the of the Korean SBS documentary.

In the second episode of the documentary they discover the original photo at the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) building at College Park, MD. The records following this picture is an Official US Coast Guard Public Relations Department with the description: "Jap in Nazi Uniform Captured". Needless to say it is easily understandable why an Asian soldier in a Nazi uniform could be described as being Japanese. This can also be seen and understood by any English speaker at exactly 30:55 of the documentary (episode 2).

These references to Illinois and his death have become a merry-go-round of misinformation based on non-primary sources (i.e. huffpost and other online media outlets). There is a findagrave memorial listing that was created in 2013. Findagrave is not even a primary source. I seriously need to know this because these continuous popups of his existence in the United States, let alone his name, is all brought into serious questioning. I really want to work with someone to verify this story and watch the documentary (it is in Korean) because it makes some serious arguments to the legitimacy of this person's identity. I'm not trying to say this soldier doesn't exist. Obviously he does and the picture hangs in a museum in Normandy, France and the original kept at NARA. I love a good story but there is some misinformation here.

UPDATE: So the information that he was at a British POW Camp and later moved to the US is a statement made by author/historian Antony Beevor in his book "The Second Word War" (published 2012) on page 1. He literally starts the book with the photograph of the soldier and his dramatic tale. Yet in the Index at the end of the book he lists absolutely no citations for Yang's entire story. His first references for page 1 starts from the paragraph after Yang's story (p. 788). Seriously what is going on? The first and original primary source never had a NAME for these 4 Korean soldiers. The 1992 Illinois death claim comes from Antony Beevor's book with no sources and one-year later someone creates a findagrave memorial for this soldier.

TL;DR WHERE DID ILLINOIS COME FROM? WHERE DID THE NAME COME FROM? WHERE DID ANTONY BEEVER GET HIS STORY FROM? WHY DID HE NOT HAVE ANY PRIMARY SOURCES?

Hoax?

Korean wiki says this is a fictional character, a kind of urban legend. Sealle (talk) 15:05, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

The Korean Wikipedia article is a complete mess, and is full of original research and uncited statements. One of the references the Korean article uses even refers to geocities webpages and internet forum posts for "source information". The other reference used by the Korean Wikipedia doesn't even mention this person by name at all. That Korean Wikipedia article is also full of speculation and personal analysis ("It could be possible that... it is likely that...") Per WP:OR, please do not introduce information translated from the Korean Wikipedia. I noticed in the Russian Wikipedia users have included information about children - this is completely unsourced and original research, as is the date of birth. There are currently no reliable sources about his date of birth. I will be reverting User:Sealle's unverifiable date of birth additions to this enwiki article for this very reason, please do not re-add the date of birth. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 15:39, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

The first reference(dkbnews) says that the name "양경종"(Yang Kyoungjong) appears first in an internet forum in 2004. And the reporter says that the name is doubtful. (No reliable source.). The second reference(hankooki) is just an introduction of Ambrose's book, "D-Day". As you know, there is no name "Yang Kyoungjoong" in "D-Day". -- ChongDae (talk) 01:57, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

• You may feel free to trust english language sources, but please keep in mind that:
  1. Prior to 1941 the Koreans could not be drafted into the imperial army on par with the Japanese, they can only serve in auxiliary divisions. Since 1941 it was allowed to call Korean volunteers into the imperial army. In 1944, due to a shortage of recruits, it was decided to call selected Koreans into the Japanese army.
  2. There's no any evidence, that POW, not being a USSR citizen, could be drafted into the Red Army. Sealle (talk) 09:22, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
     1. In 1938, at the age of eighteen, Yang had been forcibly conscripted by the Japanese into their Kwantung Army in Manchuria. / by Antony Beevor + "On July 2, 1937... Japanese troops stationed in Korea (called the Korean Troop) recommended setting up "a system requiring Korean men to voluntary enlist for military service" in response to an inquiry from the Ministry of the Army (An Opinion on Korean Enlistment, the Korean Troop's Headquarters secret documents). Accordingly, the Japanese military, assuming conscription would be introduced in the decades to follow, set up an enlistment system for Koreans on April 3, 1938 (The Army Ordinance for Special Enlistment System)"[1]
     2. Probably, there are some evidences in the 2005 movie by SBS.--Fastboy (talk) 17:28, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

We could try inserting all of the English RSes first, then asking users on the Korea WikiProject here and on the Embassy on the Korean Wikipedia for help with sources. Also flag this article on the Korean Wikipedia and explain all of the problems. WhisperToMe (talk) 19:06, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

The embassy is at ko:위키백과:대사관 WhisperToMe (talk) 16:08, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

If this person is not a hoax, then he should be not "some random soldier" but "Private K.Y. of Army X, Battalion Y, Command Z" or alike. Then official archives could be queried where the proson with those names was in the army lists. 85.90.120.180 (talk) 10:03, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

2011 South Korean movie My Way

Added back in the article with the sources. --Fastboy (talk) 17:22, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

• It looks like user Benlisquare behaves like the owner of this page and deserves a WP:EW notice. Sealle (talk) 06:34, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
  • I'm sorry? The source presently provided does not mention this individual by name. It reads that the story of Koreans being captured in Normandy is the influence of the film, however there have been multiple cases of Koreans in Normandy being found. The lack of specificity casts a shadow of uncertainty, and in my opinion it would be better not to make guesses. Furthermore, there's also WP:TRIVIA. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 06:39, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
    • So what? Only Beevor identifies this person as Yang Kyoungjong. The source I given provides the same foto as it's shown in the infobox. --Fastboy (talk) 20:26, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
      • Never mind. I retract my earlier comments. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 02:16, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

In Manchuria before the war?

The article states, "Yang was in Manchuria when he was conscripted into the Kwantung Army." This reads as if he was already in Manchuria (as a civilian) when he was drafted. Is that correct? Or was he drafted (while still in Korea) and then deployed to Manchuria?

Axeman (talk) 15:12, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Manchukuo was a Japanese client state from 1932 onwards (the Manchurian region was occupied by Japan since late 1931). The Second Sino-Japanese War began in 1937, and the border clashes with the Soviet Union took place between 1932 and 1945, with Khalkhin Gol taking place in 1939. --benlisquare_T•C•E 15:29, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Although cremated, He has an entry at find a grave.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=104354380 I am unable to find him in the SS death index. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.127.207.61 (talk) 00:24, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

FindAGrave is not a reliable source. Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!} 10:45, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Correct. Find-A-Grave (I abbreviate as "FG") is not a reliable source, but probably a bit more so than Wikipedia. I mean no insult here to either information platform, though. I simply mean that both sites are only as reliable as the sources of information placed there by volunteers. The differences, however, are mainly twofold, and weigh in Find-A-Grave's favor in some measure, except probably where famous persons are concerned:

1) FG is not primary source material per se, but it often contains primary source material, including (often) a photo of the tombstone or grave marker of whatever individual is memorialized. Photos and cemetery readings are added by volunteers, so if a deceased person isn't currently found on FG, it simply may be that no one has had the time yet to add them. FG's primary purpose is to document the location of the final remains of persons, famous or not, and hopefully supply to family members, descendants, genealogists, and historians these locations as part of one's family narrative. If a grave marker is extant, it can be photographed, and such a marker or its visual record constitute a primary source in its own right, in most cases. The subject's basic vital data is supplied on FG memorial pages for that individual, and additional notes and links to relatives and additional biographical data, such as may be found in an obituary and more, are often featured on an individual's memorial page.

2) Biographical material on any FG memorial page is often supplied by close family members, who constitute the same type of source which supplied original information on a death certificate and to the makers of the grave marker or monument featured. It is a kind of "original research" addition disallowed by Wikipedia---often for good reason, but an unfortunate loss in some cases. Documenting biographical details of people who lived further back than that served by living memory can be well-researched and documented or can be just rumor put down as authoritative "fact". It depends on the source material cited, but that might include personal interviews and research notes, etc. If it was a close relative or friend who supplied the data, it is reasonable to play the odds and conclude in most cases that it is likely accurate or close to accurate---as much as any obituary in the newspaper might be. All the data found on any FG page must be weighed against other sources such as official documents, etc., and even those kinds of things can be known to have inaccuracies. Mluklu7 (talk) 18:56, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

By the way, Find-A-Grave memorial pages include cremations, etc. Many cremated remains are in columbariums, on site at many large cemeteries, and of course some remains are scattered somewhere, or buried in family plot, or kept in private hands. The fact that one is cremated is no bar to having a memorial page at FG, nor is it in any way unusual. Mluklu7 (talk) 19:04, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Should the last allegiance be USA?

While I do not believe he was in the US military, he could be considered as having America as his adopted home. I do not know the precise usage of Allegiance in Wikipedia. Consider adding USA after Nazi Germany.

Source improvement:

Daily Mail has been ruled as an Unreliable source. Huffpost is just a blog and not much better. I removed them and added CBC article, which is a start. We need primary sources, and more reliable sources.

We do have to ask if this story is even true. Is it a hoax or an urban legend? What is this story originally based upon? The Korean documentary raises the possibility this man didn't exist. I don't know enough about the subject to really comment. Harizotoh9 (talk) 22:47, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Sources, hoax concerns

Copied from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Korea The sourcing for the article is very poor though. Is it possible this is a hoax or an urban legend? I see sources online that tell the same story, but what if these sources are just repeating what other sources are saying? What is this story ultimately based upon though? When I first came to the article, it was largely based on a Daily Mail article, but that is a low quality source that has been deemed unreliable.

Martin Morgan in "The Americans on D-Day: A Photographic History of the Normandy Invasion" gives some overview of the issue. He mentions that the photo is real, but that the man is not identified in the original photo. It's only a theory emerging in the 1990's that the man is Yang Kyoungjong, and he speculates he is an unidentified man with a Georgian battallion. Link Harizotoh9 (talk) 23:12, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

@Harizotoh9: Well, he is mentioned by Antony Beevor ([2] doesn't have page numbers, but he is an estabilished historian. He may be wrong and he could be repeating an urban legend, but unless we find sources to say that this is a fake account, well, it seems genuine (and even if it was to be shown to be fake, the article will be adjusted to say so, but not deleted, since he (or the legend) are notable). Ditto for Stephen E. Ambrose, but here I couldn't confirm his story is mentioned in [3] - Google doesn't return any hits from that book for Yang or Kyoungjong; I've removed this reference. Now, I couldn't find any English language scholarly work discussing this story in detail, but the fact that it is repeated in a number of other sources (GBooks search for his name), if in passing, means that if it is a hoax, it is not a Wikipedia responsibility. Maybe the story was invented, but if it was, it happened long before Wikipedia was created and successfully duped professional historians. See Sławomir Rawicz for a similar story that was proven to be mostly false, or at least exaggerated and twisted (up to and including the main 'character's' name). PS. We have to be careful of WP:CITOGENESIS, his story in Robert S. Kim (May 2017). Project Eagle: The American Christians of North Korea in World War II. U of Nebraska Press. pp. 237–. ISBN 978-1-61234-932-9. seems to have been copied directly from our article, word for word, pretty much. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:59, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

We would need page numbers and more importantly context.Slatersteven (talk) 11:07, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

He is treated by serious historians as a non-hoax - [4][5][6][7].Icewhiz (talk) 11:11, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Regarding Stephen E. Ambrose - he documents the story of 4 Koreans captured on D-Day by the 101st serving in the Wehrmacht (without mentioning Yang by name) - [8] - the book dates back to 1994 - well before Wikipedia.Icewhiz (talk) 11:20, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

The identity of the man in the image has been called into question, and that should be reflected in the article as well. Martin Morgan says that the man is originally identified only as "young Jap", and that it's a theory originating in the 90's that it's Yang Kyoungjong. He does treat Yang Kyoungjong as a real person, and mentions him being a Korean conscript in the German army, having been released in 1947, and setting in America and dying in 1992. Meaning that the image should not be in the right infobox, but instead in the body of the article, and mention how the identification is not confirmed. Note that Morgan doesn't mention all of the other details of the story. Perhaps Yang Kyoungjong was a real person, was a Korean conscript in the German army, but much of his backstory is actually just speculation?

Now if he died in America in 1992, then that means he probably had an obituary published. That could be a useful detail that can confirm more of his story.

I'm also very curious about the Korean documentary on him. Has anyone who can speak Korean seen it? What arguments do they cite?

We should approach this story with caution and skepticism. We have to ask what is this story originally based upon? What are the primary documents and eye-witnesses? We have a series of secondary and tertiary sources. What if they were simply repeating what they read? We need to strip away these sources and get to the root of what the story is. Harizotoh9 (talk) 15:45, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

It's possible this is a kind of legend that got expanded over time. I've noticed that these sources above do not cite anything as their source of information at all, raising the question as to how they know any of this. The only books that seem to refer to the entire story seem to be pretty recent ones. Ambrose's book only mentions several Koreans but no names. Morgan mentions that in the 90's a theory emerged that he was a Korean, who was captured several times, and then captured by the Americans, and that only later was the identity given as Yang Kyoungjong. It could be that at some point someone cited the speculation as fact, and since then it has been repeated without question, and over the years the story grew as people added to it. Our job then is to try to identify what can in fact be confirmed. Harizotoh9 (talk) 19:14, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

The exact name of 'Yang Kyoungjong' originated on the internet in 2005 from Axis History Forum poster 'Kim Sung' in this thread [9]. Later he posted that the information he provided was "not confirmed" [10]. Beevor did not publish until 2012, and all subsequent sources are after Beevor (Zaloga etc.). It seems possible that Beevor read the story which was going around the internet and decided to use it as an anecdote to introduce his book. Ambrose does not mention him by name and the mention of the 4 Koreans who have the same backstory as this 'Yang Kyoungjong' is from an interview of an American officer, who "never found out" what happened to them. So it appears the 1992 death date has been entirely made up out of thin air. Kges1901 (talk) 20:33, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

That's what I'm thinking as well. Major details such as name and death details seem to be entirely made up. Beevor seems to be the source that everyone is relying upon, but he may have just gotten the name from the internet. I've heard of people supposedly visiting his gravesite, so who knows what that means. Maybe they're confused, or there really is a "Yang Kyoungjong" who died in 92 in that city, but he may have no connection to this story. Looking through archives from the city of Evanston will help clear this up. There should at least be an obituary. Harizotoh9 (talk) 20:49, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Evanston is a suburb of Chicago so I checked the Chicago Tribune archives on Newspapers.com, no mentions of anyone named Yang in April 1992. Kges1901 (talk) 22:23, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Checking archives of local papers for Evantson would be next step. If they don't mention him at all, we can say the name and death details are just made up by people. I am curious if there just happens to be a real guy with that name in that area and this entire backstory was just attributed to him.

And in that case I don't know what to do with the article, since some reliable sources seem to say he's made up, and other treat him as real. That's reflected in the current page, which the first part treats him as real, while the second part says the story isn't confirmed. We have contradicting sources basically.

The other hangle is to look at the picture itself and try to find more information on that man. His name and information was being recorded as his picture was taken. That document is somewhere. He would be sent to a POW camp. That information is recorded somewhere. Harizotoh9 (talk) 02:31, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Since Google books doesn't offer the page from Cooker's "The Improbable War", I hunted down a copy. Page 120:

Let me offer a telling snapshot of this. During the D-Day landingsAmerican paratroopers thought they had captured a Japanese soldier,only to find out later that he was a Korean. His name was YangKyoungjong. He had been forcibly conscripted by the Japanese andsent to Manchuria where he was captured by the Red Army after thebattle of Khalkhin Gol (the defeat that persuaded the Japanese HighCommand not to go to war against Russia in 1941). He was then sentto a labour camp and drafted by the Russians. Early in 1943 he wastaken prisoner by the Germans at the battle of Kharkov. A year later,now in German uniform, he was sent to Normandy where he met hisdestiny. He later chose to migrate to the United States where he lived until his death in 1992.

That's it. No citations or explanation where any of this information came from. Most of the book sources are like this. Just a retelling of the story with no citations. Harizotoh9 (talk) 02:49, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Found something else. According to this blog post, "The story was broken in 2002 and became a sensation in South Korea," . Which places the origin before Beevor's book and the 2005 Axis forum post. That would explain why there's a 2005 South Korean documentary. Harizotoh9 (talk) 03:58, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

The only two direct pieces of evidence are the photograph, and Brewer's testimony. There is no evidence the photo is of Yang, and if Brewer was mistaken in his belief the four men were Korean, then the entire story collapses. What likely happened is that Ambrose repeats Brewer's testimony in 1994, then he assumes that if they were Korean, this is how they could have ended up captured in D-Day. The story grows over time, and details are added to it, including name, date of birth, so forth. No one actually wanted to create a hoax, but it's a kind of urban legend, and it spread because it's a damn good story.

Now the big problem is that some sources, including books published by academics in university presses, treat the story as factual. Other sources treat the story as not true. This creates a contradiction, where the WP rules dictate we treat both sources as valid. This creates the current page which seems to treat the story as valid for the first part, then not for the second. My prediction, is that if this story is not true, then in the future more sources questioning it will occur, and that will be added to the article. Then the article can be re-written with those new sources.

For now, the Korean documentary would be something to use to expand the article. Harizotoh9 (talk) 19:04, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

The documentary was about how they went to the German military archives and found Korean surnames, but never found Yang. There's a transcript of the non-Korean parts on the Russian wiki talkpage. Kges1901 (talk) 19:55, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Gott im himmel knows how the Germans would have transcribed the name of a Korean captured after Russian service (and under what name they served there) - that is rather weak. However, maybe we should have an article on the 4 Koreans captured on D-Day and then in that erticle describe the Yang angle?Icewhiz (talk) 20:57, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Admittedly the transcript does mention the surname Jung which could become Yang but which is also a German surname. However, the weakness of the story rests on the fact that nothing of him in America can be actually found, and that the Red Army did not actually directly draft POWs (though they did draft gulag petty criminals and political prisoners). There is also no evidence of Japanese POWs being sent to the gulag - most were exchanged and a small number took their chances with the Soviets, settling in Mongolia and the Far East. [11] [12]. The whole anecdote appears to be an embellishing of inferences. On further investigation, the documentary is about the man in the photo and Brewer's report NOT 'Yang Kyoungjong' specifically as the Korean version of the name doesn't come up in Google until 2006. Also, the blogpost that Harizotoh9 mentioned above has the same 2002 year detail as the forum post, so it doesn't really prove anything about the story. Kges1901 (talk) 21:47, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

It hasn't been sufficiently established that any Koreans were captured on D-Day. This looks to be a story that grew over time because no one questioned it.

Also, I put in a request in the Evanston, public library to search for obituaries around Yang's supposed death, and they found nothing. Harizotoh9 (talk) 05:58, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for doing the hard work on this. It's a clear hoax, Morgan's observations need to be moved to a more prominent place now. Kges1901 (talk) 11:24, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

I don't believe it to be a hoax in the sense that someone created the story in an attempt fool anyone. It's more like a legend that grew over time, information was added to it, and no one, even actual historians, questioned it. The most likely scenario is that Brewer was mistaken in his belief on the ethnicity of the men seen on D-Day, Ambrose made another mistake in accepting that testimony instead of questioning it, and it grew over time, and somehow names and dates were added to it.

Morgan seems to be the only author so far that has questioned the story. The problem is that in his book, while he makes the case that there is no evidence of the identity of the man in the photo, and he speculates the man is more likely Georgian, he does seem to be operating from the belief that there was a Yang who served in the German army, he was Korean, and he died in Illinois. I emailed him to ask for his current views, and he told me that he believes Yang to a be modern legend, and that the man never existed. He also believes that Ambrose is the origin of the myth. Presumably, at one point he will write something, an article, a book, a chapter in a book, that will go into more depth on this topic. That future text will likely make up the core of this article. Harizotoh9 (talk) 16:09, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Comment: I cannot say whether this is or is not a hoax, since I am not a military expert. But reading through this lovely discussion, I do agree that regardless of its outcome, the article itself should not be deleted. The reason for this is because, if this is a hoax, this is not like most other Wikipedia hoaxes, it is not just created by some guy fooling around on the internet. It is more notable, having whole movies, ads, etc. based on it. Therefore, if Yang Kyoungjong is a hoax, the whole article should be completely rewritten as describing the hoax. Remember: articles about hoaxes are allowed on Wikipedia, not actual hoaxes. ShangKing (talk) 09:44, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

The issue arises that most published sources attest to this person being real. It is a case where even PhD historians repeat an urban legend without double checking it. The only two pieces of evidence for this story that can be confirmed are the photo, and the testimony by Brewer. Everything else seems to be extrapolated or added on later. If Brewer was wrong about the ethnicity of the men he saw, then the entire story is likely wrong too.

The Korean documentary questions it, but it's mostly in Korean (and in Flash a program I haven't had for years). The only source that questions it in English is author Martin Morgan. In his book, he says that the man in the photo has never been identified, and this is true, and he puts forth a counter theory that the man is Georgian, which is more likely than Korean. However, he seems to believe the man is real in the book. However, when I emailed him for clarification, he says he now believes that Yang Kyoungjong is entirely a myth. However, emails can't be cited as sources. We'll have to wait until someone publishes something. For what it's worth, the Korean wiki says he's a myth, which implies that this is a well known fact for Koreans. Harizotoh9 (talk) 17:52, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

One may also concede that 1) It is difficult or impossible to prove a negative, i.e. that these Koreans---or Yang---never existed due to the fact that a handful of Wiki contributors could not find evidence of him in America, and that KNOWN practices of Japanese and Russian armies (again, known to certain historians and a handful of Wiki editors) do not tend to support the story. And 2) MANY things that actually happened in history that are accepted as factual have been supplied by historians without our desired level of solid primary sources. And 3) We do have a culture of "myth" busting sometimes, which means, to me, a VERY heightened skepticism, often to the point of wanting to de-bunk everything in sight. I do know, for example, that one veteran's eyewitness testimony of certain war atrocities and vigilante justice in the Philippines in the wake of the 1945 liberation of Luzon has no other known documentary evidence. But 2 or 3 other veterans came forward and backed up the first guy's story after it was published. (They witnessed the aftermath of Japanese massacres, and later witnessed the local Filipinos spot justice against a few people in a certain village who were known---and admitted---collaborators with those same Japanese. An American Army major also was seen to be present, apparently asked or induced to be a witness, but would not have been able to stop it even if he wanted. etc.) Point is, veteran eyewitness testimony may not be enough for the de-bunkers, and it may not be enough to constitute proof that would stand up in court or in a Wiki article that is trying to be accurate and professional. But it may be enough to lend credibility to the story AS a story, with the desired and necessary proofs yet waiting to be discovered. And what if those proofs have been destroyed? The disastrous Natl. Personnel Records Center fire at Jefferson Barracks, MO, on 12 Jul 1973 destroyed tons of U.S. military service records; but those men and women actually DID serve, and sometimes the only KNOWN account of their service details other than the typical DD-214 filed in county courthouses is their own testimony alone. The 1890 U.S. Census was almost completely destroyed by fire in 1921, but the people found there and no place else still did actually exist, sometimes known to us only by the fact that a grandparent mentioned having an older sibling who died young, a lifespan sometime between roughly 1881 and 1899. If Yang was said to have died in April 1992, he may not have died IN Evanston or Chicago, etc.---he may have been traveling or may have changed his name or its spelling, etc. I applaud the sincere investigative reporter's work, and so far, those efforts have not produced anything. But I know of somewhat well known persons who have practically disappeared, and the discovery of their fate or ultimate end has been near impossible to find, even with the internet and help from local libraries doing more conventional research work. Therefore, do not assume an urban legend here, only conclude that there are claims---like many claims that FINALLY turn out to be proven true---that are unsubstantiated with solid sources these 7 decades later. It is all we can be sure of at this point. Mluklu7 (talk) 18:55, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Hoax tag inappropriate

1. The "hoax" tag is for "hoax articles", i.e., articles created on Wikipedia as hoaxes, not articles about subjects that might be hoaxes. It is not appropriate here and I will remove it. 2. As far as I can see, the claim is not that Yang is a hoax, but that he is a legend. 3. Antony Beevor in Second World War clearly suggests the story is real. If he doesn't provide sources for his information that does not demonstrate that the claim is false. Many popular histories do not provide sources to an academic level. This is unfortunate, but it's a fact, and it doesn't prove anything. 4. The amount of details about Yang's life (including his death in Illinois in 1992) does not really support the idea that he is legend. 5. There is dispute about the photo, and the Korean documentary apparently says there is "no clear evidence" of his existence, but I don't see a source that is actually saying Yang is a hoax or a legend.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:08, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

German Ossuary at Huisnes-sur-Mer in Normandy

I have been to the German Ossuary at Huisnes-sur-Mer in Normandy and one set of burial Crypts contain a list of Korean dead. It being the German cemetery and these are German soldiers who were Koreans. How did they get there if they are a group of dead Koreans why could there not be survivors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kevy=Wevie (talk • contribs) 21:28, 18 November 2020 (UTC)