Talk:Wends/Archive 1

The Wends speak Wendish and live in Saxony and Brandenburg in Germany.

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Ok -- at present? More info would be nice...JHK

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"The Prussian (German Imperial) government insisted that Wends living in the area give up their language in schools and other public arenas. Moreover, the Wends who wished to continue living in the Empire were compelled to worship in the form of Lutheranism." Back then there was no German Empire (which was only founded in 1871 - two decades later). Also the basic idea of Prussia was to invite religiosly persecuted minorities to settle in Prussia to benefit the country's development (e.g. the Huguenots from France). I don't see why there should have been a special treatment for Wends. Please check that.

"Usage"

All the talk about usage of the word without a single name of a user or quote. Lots of "some". Examples would improve this article. How about an exonym reference?--Wetman 00:43, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"Inconsistencies"

The name Wend is up till now used for Lusatian (or Sorbian) language and people. However in the past the usage was much wider:

• Germans used it for all western Slavic tribes and states,
• later, till the end of German Empire in 1918, it was used for Grand Duchies of Mecklenburg and its local dynasty of Slavic origin,
• the same case was in the Duchy of Pomerania - the eastern part of the duchy was called Wenden (district of Słupsk or Stolp). The official title of Pomeranian Dukes was "dei gratia Stetinensis, Pomeranie, Slavie et Casubie dux, princeps Ruyanorum" or in lower german: "van godes gnaden to Stettin, der Pomeren, der Cassuben, (unde) der Wende hertoge unde vorste to Rugen").

The titular name of the King of Sweden i.e. "Svea, Götes och Wendes konung" means: "King of Swedes, Goths and Vandals" in latin: "Rex Suedorum, Gothorum, Vandalorumque".

If these "Wendes" have something to do with Slavic Wends, we should test carefully. (There is for example Venda people in RSA). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Marqoz (talk • contribs) 19:54, 17 December 2006 (UTC).

I also suppose that Wendes means rather Vandals. What is interesting Poland was once territory of Vandals. I will add link to further discuss the issue. See [[1]]Cautious 09:47, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Plus another usage: In norther Lower Saxony there is a region called the Wendland (to the North of Lüneburg). I'm pretty certain that in all those cases (except for the Venda of South Africa, of course, the term "Wends" refers to West Slavic settlement. (Of course, in the Wendland, Slavic language and identity has been extinct for centuries, however, it has been inhabited by Slavic tribes in the high Middle ages.

When I was at university I was told, that "Wenden" was derived from the Latin term Veneti. I understand that the original "Veneti", who are supposed to have lent their name to the Italian region of Veneto and to the city of Venice were neither Slavs nor related to them. However, a transfer of an ethnonym from one ethnic group to another is nothing unusual in history. More so when we take into account that the name Wends was imposed upon them by their Germanic neighbors. No single Slavic tribe or people ever called themselves "Wend" in their own language. --Johannes Rohr 20:56, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Venedes

Found another article on WP about the historic people: Venedes. Since the English name for Venedes, Venedi etc. is Wends, seems like the articles should be merged together.--Termer 06:04, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
..and yet another Pomeranians--Termer 06:33, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I would not support a merger of the aforementioned articles. Wends/Wenden is normally used now to refer specifically to the Lusatian Sorbs. It was used in a medieval sense to refer to the Slavs along the Germans' eastern borders- specifically the Polabian Slavs and sometimes the Pomeranians (the northern Wenden), as well as the medieval Slovenians and sometimes the Slovaks (the southern Winden). The Pomeranians were a specific subdivision of West Slavs and should not be merged. IMO, the Venedes article adequately describes how and why scholars have supported or disputed the Venedes-Wends connection. Olessi 15:48, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Agree. I have removed the merge template since the discussion on this has failed to gain support and a merger of the two article is IMO unjustified. Venedes and Wends refer to two distinct groups according to modern academic view. Perhaps one of the reasons that may cause confusion here is the rather ill-chosen title Venedes itself (I'm not sure whether this ethnonym actually exists in the English language), since the article actually refers to one of the many ancient IE groups known under the name of Veneti. I would instead propose a new discussion that the article be moved, perhaps to Vistula Veneti or Northern Veneti. --Jalen 16:30, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Detailed history

Because the term Wends has had multiple meanings throughout history, I don't see the need to go into detailed histories of certain groups, such as incidents involving the Rani (Slavic tribe) or Pomeranians, in this specific article. IMO, it is best to simply state the different meanings of Wends (already done in the article), and allow the reader to find the detailed information in respective articles. This page would work best as a type of disambiguation page. Olessi 16:48, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

That's fine if it had multiple meanings throughout history. We'd just need to start from the beginning. The thing is Venedes is not a name spelled in English, the most of Google books [2] results are either in German, French etc. The case with "Wends" [3] is very different.

What I'm after here is getting all the facts together into one article about the historic people called Wends. In case it needs another title and this one would become the disambiguation page, that’s cool. Just that what to call the article about the Wends who lived on the shores of the Baltic Sea up to the middle ages? The title obviously should be in English, therefore Venedes I’m afraid wouldn’t do. So, any suggestions welcome. Thanks!--Termer 07:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Your rationale makes more sense to me now. If Venedes is merged into Wends, it is important to include that some scholars differentiate between the two groups; I was under the impression before that you were definitively stating they were the same. Olessi 17:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Lest say that I'm one of those who considers historical Wends and Venedes the same people. It doesn't mean that I'd object to alternative ideas. Therefore "definitively" is definitively not a word I'd use here.--Termer 05:22, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

"Wends of Pomerania"

I think there may be a little bit of confusion with this phrase. "Wends of Pomerania" is not a general term for Wends, which is implied by the current version, but a reference to the specific tribes of "Wends" (the Pomeranians) who lived in the historical region of Pomerania. The medieval usage of Wends is a general term referring to the Slavs bordering the Germans: the Obotrites, the Liutizi, the Ranians, the Sorbs, the Pomeranians, the Slovenians (Winds), etc. The Pomeranians were considered a subdivision of the Wends by the Germans; the Wendish Wagrians would not be classified as Pomeranians, which is what the current phrasing suggests.

I am wary about providing links to actual Google Books searches, as Google's library and the results provided can change. Additionally, editors should ideally be able to access texts from which information is being sourced in order to check for reliability and bias. Rather than including a simple link such as [4], I would suggest instead using the most reputable of the texts as a source instead. A proposed phrasing would be "The Wends are believed by some scholars to have been the descendents of an ancient Indo-European people known by the French term "Venedes"; other scholars believe the medieval Germans simply adopted the term for neighboring Slavs." Olessi 19:04, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, it clearly says so on the map attached to the article + all the books I provided for sources that Wends have been refd to as the "Pomore Wends" or Wends of Pomerania. Therefore I'd restore the facts you've removed and add the The medieval usage of Wends is a general term referring to the Slavs bordering the Germans; Pomeranians were considered a subdivision of the Wends by the Germans as something that is good to know how the Germans look at this and should be specified in the article accordingly. So the point is, instead of removing things from the article I'd specify the facts if you think it's necessary.Thanks!--Termer 04:19, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

"Pomore Wends" is a phrase used on one specific map from 1905 (the map also curiously enough includes the Prussians within Esthland); Google Books does not give any hits from its current library. Similarly, "Pomeranian Wends" has a single GB reference at the moment. Usage of "Wends of Pomerania" is largely restricted to 19th and early 20th century publications. The GB hits are largely older texts using older terminology. The usage of "Wends of Pomerania" is simply phrasing similar to "Wends of Holstein", "Wends of Mecklenburg", "Wends of Brandenburg", "Wends of Saxony" (which gives more hits than any others), etc.

I don't see why the Pomeranians should receive preferential treatment compared to the other tribes. The fact that Pomeranians were considered Wends is already listed in the 'disambiguation' part of the article; perhaps it would be better to move that information closer to the introduction as it was before. Olessi 15:46, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, "Wends of Pomerania" seems different for me since Pomerania was the area where they mostly lived, their homeland so to speak that ended up being divided between Poland and Germany. At the same time "Wends of Saxony" would be like Baltic Germans or Sudeten Germans for my eyes. Regarding Pomeranians, thats fine. The point I'm pushing here is that Wends was the general name for all the Slavic peoples that lived in the area at the shores of the Baltic sea, the land also called Pomerania.--Termer 19:22, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Pomerania was not the area where they mostly lived, but merely one of many regions (Holstein, Mecklenburg, Hanover, Anhalt, Upper Saxony, Lusatia, Brandenburg). If anything, the Sorbs are the group most frequently referred to as Wends, not the Pomeranians. "Wends" is not the Germanic term for Slavs who lived along the Baltic, but the term for Slavs who lived along the eastern borders of the medieval Germans, regardless of latitude. The Sorbs were as much Wends as the Pomeranians, and Sorbian Lusatia is fairly inland. The Hanoverian Wendland was named after the Wends, and is inland. The Carantanians were Winden (southern German term for Wends), and they lived nowhere near the Baltic (de:Windische Sprache, Windischgrätz). Olessi 22:08, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, it seems we're getting confused here exactly what era we're talking about. I've been only referring to medieval times. I have no idea how the name “wends” is used nowadays in Germany and I have to take your word for it. And I haven’t come across of any medieval sources that talk about the Wends or venedi etc. living in the middle of Germany like the Sorbs nowadays or being the ancestors of Slovenians. But it seems that the “wends” or venedi or vendes etc. has been used as the name at one point for many Slavic peoples in general. In Baltic-Finnic languages for example it is used nowadays as well for the name of entire Russia. [5], [6] or [7]--Termer 05:10, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I have been referring primarily to the Middle Ages as well. A medieval reference to "Wends" does not necessarily mean the Pomeranians; in my experience, it usually refers to the Polabian Slavs and Sorbs instead, actually. Olessi 13:54, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Cool! Lets leave it to that then. It doesn't seem like a major issue to have a dispute about. And since you have already made an article Wendish Crusade, to have one on WP attached to the Northern Crusades was my main motivation to put things right with the article here in the first place, everything seems good to me. --Termer 20:47, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

No problem! Olessi 13:54, 10 September 2007 (UTC)