Talk:Timur

Tamerlane

I think his alternate name of "Tamerlane" ought to be right front in the first paragraph of the lede, and bolded. It could say "formerly known in the West" if you like, I suppose. And I mean after all he is actually just called "Tamerlane" in a few places in the text, with the explanation for this buried in the text. And I mean it Tamerlane is, or used to be (which counts) a common name for the guy, look at the refs, Tamerlane is all thru them. This Google Ngram gives Tamerlane as being used about half as much as Timur, which isn't chopped liver, granted a fair number of the Tamerlanes are probably for the poem.

I'm just a driveby here, so I haven't done this, but I think it probably should be done. Herostratus (talk) 04:14, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree with this. Per MOS:BOLDSYN and MOS:BOLDREDIRECT it should be in the lead. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 21:33, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. I have added it.AlphabeticThing9 (talk) 04:57, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

@AlphabeticThing9: I'm not your "mate". Read wp:civil. Also I added Tamerlane, as other users wished. Still your removal of sourced content + names is not justified. Beshogur (talk) 11:57, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 November 2022

The claim that Timur's campaigns killed 17 million people has no clear source and should be deleted. The sources currently cited are a Chicago Tribune article with no citation and page 147 in The History of the Mongol Conquest which does not make the claim that Timur's campaigns killed 17 million people, only that they were brutal and did not create a lasting state. JarkThornbeard (talk) 06:41, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. As per WP:RS, reliable sources (such as the Chicago Tribune) do not necessarily need to cite further sources to be considered reliable. If you believe that the Chicago Tribune is generally unreliable, or that this specific article is unreliable, please establish consensus around this before requesting an edit. The second source indirectly supports the statement in the article by stating that "millions" were killed. I agree that the article could be improved by a further source that also provides a specific number. However, the claim is well-sourced enough to stay up. Actualcpscm (talk) 15:56, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Genocide

Do you think that the category is appropriate? On Category:Genocide perpetrators I see historic personages like Attila and Genghis Khan. However the terminology is apparently new. Otherwise I'll revert back. Beshogur (talk) 16:35, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

A genocide is defined as "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group." Systematic killing of populations as performed by Timur in several cases, including Delhi, Armenian territories, etc. corresponds to the definition of genocide. It shall be referenced as such for the sake of consistency.

The sources regarding the estimates of victims of Timur's campaigns are missing and shall be completed. Here are the three most recent and recognised references: - In "The History of the Mongol Conquests", John Joseph Saunders (1971) the author estimates that Timur's conquests caused the death of 17 Million victims. - In "Tamerlane: Sword of Islam, Conqueror of the World", the author Justin Marozzi (2004) estimates that Timur's conquests caused the death of 20 Million victims. - In "Armies of the Ottoman Turks, 1300–1774.", the author David Nicolle (1983) estimates that Timur's conquests caused the death of 17 Million victims.

The figures mentioned in the summary shall be updated to 20 Million as the higher limit. Suggested wording would be: "Estimates vary from 1 to 20 million with several Historian estimating the total number of victims to be around 17 Millions." with the above mentioned sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by As97wiki (talk • contribs) 18:03, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

@Beshogur: Helen Fein, one of the editors of Teaching About Genocide, is described as a scholar specializing in genocide on her Wikipedia page. In addition, the page Genocides in history (before World War I) has a section about Timur's campaigns that cites sources labeling them genocidal. CJ-Moki (talk) 22:49, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

@CJ-Moki: just checked that, it's poorly sourced actually, page nrs are not even present. Beshogur (talk) 04:55, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Unable to edit this page

I attempted to make a grammatical correction to this page, but was unable to do so since it appears to be locked from editing. Please correct this ridiculous situation! 173.88.246.138 (talk) 22:04, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

The article is unfortunately the constant target of disruption, hence why it's protected for IPs (and new users too I think?). What did you want to correct? I'll gladly do it for you. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:57, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2023

(The claim that Timur gave himself the title "gurugen" or "son-in-law" could be mistaken with the title "Gur-khan" that was assumed by non-royal blood kings of Mongols. First, in the Secret History of Mongols, Jamukha a non-royal blood given himself the title "Gur-Khan", while Temujin assumed "Chingiz-Khan". Second, Chingizid king Ligdan khan from the 16th century addressed himself as Chingiz-Khan in a letter he sent to Nurkhachi baatar of Manchuria. Third in the Mongolian language someone giving himself the title gurugen or son-in-law is unintelligible considering that mongolian language mostly kept its originality since 13th century. Sarahyoungasian (talk) 03:01, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

@Sarahyoungasian: This has nothing to do with gurkhan, which comes from Turkic kür (whole). Gurkan is Persianized version of Mongol khüregen (хүргэн). I don't understand what's the issue here? Beshogur (talk) 14:49, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Indeed. Nashville whiz (talk) 10:37, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Tamerlane

No one uses Timur. Why is this article using this name. Are we going to change Plato to "Platonas", write Napoleon with an "é"? this is ridiculous. can we proceed to a name change? 212.72.139.134 (talk) 09:41, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

No. Beshogur (talk) 09:49, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Year of Birth

Why is the year of Timur's date of birth listed as 1336 in the infobox, but 1325 at the beginning of the article? I can't edit the page as it is semi-protected. Thanks! 2600:6C64:5800:2B4:D0DD:428:66BC:8B03 (talk) 17:27, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

@AgisdeSparte: can you elaborate your edits? Beshogur (talk) 18:09, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

@Beshogur @2600:6C64:5800:2B4:D0DD:428:66BC:8B03 Hello, I have made changes to the beginning because in the subsection regarding the origins of Timur, the date traditionally provided in both primary sources is heavily criticized by a scholar who suggests a more plausible date between 325/330. AgisdeSparte (talk) 22:59, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

I can't see 1325 either. Where did you get this number? Beshogur (talk) 09:57, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

1336, although fabricated, is the most accepted birth date. I don't see 1325 as a consensus among scholars. Beshogur (talk) 10:08, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Death toll

Did Timur really kill 17 million people? That is, 5% of the world's population at the time? The source appears to be a 1999 Chicago Tribune article, but the figure seems very hard to believe. It's an incredible figure for 14th-century weapons. I am removing it. No precise figure should be added without a better source than that.

Semi-protected edit request on 20 November 2023

He was not muslim, He is Nasiry one of the Shia. According to all scholars of Islam, He ruled with genkiz khan rules only and he wasn't a muslim. Please fix it 41.37.133.94 (talk) 16:34, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

No WP:RS to support this. Also, Shias are also Muslim, see Shia Islam. --HistoryofIran (talk) 17:28, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Timur Was half Turkic half Iranian according to the sources . He was known himself as the Shahanshah of Iran and Turan

Timur ancestors were From Barlas tribe which are from Eastern turks like Uygurs & Karluks . But his mother is Iranian and according to his forged family tree for his mother he connects his mother blood line to Epic Iranian Shah of Shahnameh (book of the kings) Mannouchehr . According to his letters to Muzaffarids he claims the Throne of Iran clearly and suggests to Muzaffarids to Open the the way for the Dignity of Iran (Timur). 3rd document about Iranian Prajudice of Timur is his biography book by the pen of his Iranian Lord Chancellor Nizam-i-din Shami who was originally from Tabriz . Inside Zafarnamah on page 10 in the last Paragraph he writes a Poem for timur and Calls him Shah_e_Darvishdoost means king protector of people and serfs Then the author proceeds and says Iran and Turan are under his Command. Here's the original poem : Tony.k95 (talk) 06:31, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

"according to his forged family tree" do you know what the word "forged" means? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:41, 3 April 2024 (UTC)