Talk:Thanasis Vagias

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles

Greece Low‑importance

	Greece portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Greece, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Greek people on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GreeceWikipedia:WikiProject GreeceTemplate:WikiProject GreeceGreek articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

@Zjarri. please stop this blind revert strategy [[1]]. This quote: "VAYIAS, Thanasis, 1765-1834, Epirot Greek, a confidant of Ali Pasha, wrongly thought by Makriyannis to be a betrayer of the Greek cause. Returned to Greece 1829 and given Government post by Capodistrias", is imposible to be written by Makrygiannis, actually this is written by Woodhouse. It would be kind of you if you read the quote first before adding the dubious tag.Alexikoua (talk) 22:43, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Untitled[edit]

That's not a revert because the dubious tag didn't exist before I added it. Labeling every edit you disagree with blind revert is a violation of wp:npa.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 22:48, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You added a tag with a completely wrong edit summary, propably because you didn't see the source first. Woodhouse isn't 19th century, actually he wasn't born that century. This link [[2]] proves that the descriptions in xxi& 234 p. belongs to him. I would appreciate if you initiate a discussion before you add any weird tags.Alexikoua (talk) 22:59, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Forewords aren't located in page 234, so that quote wasn't written by Woodhouse. If you can't find out who wrote that then the tag is necessary.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 23:07, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See again the link: "Description: xxi, 234 p. front., 17 plates (incl. ports. maps) 23 cm." Woodhouse' descriptions are located on front and back (p. 234, the last page). Thank you.Alexikoua (talk) 23:11, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Even the Greek wiki, says he was Albanian: "Το 1812 εκστράτευσε εναντίον των Αλβανών του Αργυροκάστρου και του Γαρδικίου (ΒΔ του Αργυροκάστρου), ύστερα από εντολή του Αλή. Σύμφωνα, όμως με τον ποιητή Αριστοτέλη Βαλαωρίτη, στο έργο Θανάσης Βάγιας, η κατηγορία ότι σκότωσε 600 Γαρδικιώτες πρέπει να θεωρείται ανυπόστατη. Πέρα από τις αντιφατικές προσεγγίσεις των πηγών της εποχής, σχετικά με την συμπεριφορά του προς τους συμπατριώτες του, ο Βάγιας ήταν πιστά αφοσιωμένος στον Αλή Πασά, που τον υπηρέτησε πιστά ως την κατάλυση της εξουσίας του, το 1822.". The problem of course is that you think Woodhouse is a historian. I will try to find some refs.Balkanian`s word (talk) 09:14, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Balk.: I'm sorry but you need to brush up your Greek: it says that the inhabitants of Gardiq were Albanians, nothing about him. I remind you that Woodhouse is an expert on the field. If you need any explanations about the Greek version feel free to ask me since I was the main editor there. Happy searching.11:02, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Very funny, why should this mean that his compatriots were Albanians [[3]]? According to the context they were Greeks. Some examples Makrygiannis & Valaoritis, that regarded him as traitor, obvisouly because he was Ali's confident & it's in full accordance with the lead (Οι πηγές της εποχής είναι ιδιαίτερα αντιφατικές σχετικά με τη δράση του: κάποιες των αναφέρουν ως προδότη του ελληνικού έθνους και άλλες ως ήρωα που διέσωσε χιλάδες συμπατριώτες του.) Alexikoua (talk) 12:10, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have undone some of the usual POV-pushing using 19th century sources by Stupidus Maximus. "Sir Henry Holland", from 1815. For crying out loud. Enough with that already. Also interesting is how he insists on adding that Vayas was Albanian, but then removes "Muslim Albanian" from the description of Ali Pasha in this article. Athenean (talk) 19:46, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What's really weird is that this source doesn't claim that he is Albanian [[4]], also 19th century stuff seems to be clear about Vagias' ethnicity [[5]][[6]].Alexikoua (talk) 20:00, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yannis Makriyannis is Also 19 century source. Stupidus Maximus (talk) 20:01, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please, take a look at both article&discussion, Woodhouse is 20th century.Alexikoua (talk) 20:19, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Alexikoua, Woodhouse only editor and wrote foreword. The citation of Vayas being greek is also from memories writen in 19 century. Why your 19 century memory is OK, and my book is not? Double standards? Stupidus Maximus (talk) 20:24, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You have to read the article: this: "VAYIAS, Thanasis, 1765-1834, Epirot Greek, a confidant of Ali Pasha, wrongly thought by Makriyannis to be a betrayer of the Greek cause. Returned to Greece 1829 and given Government post by Capodistrias" its imposible to be written by Makrygiannis. Actually its Woodhouse description, as the reference says, in the last page of the book (p. 234).Alexikoua (talk) 20:28, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The source of this statement is... Makryianis? Stupidus Maximus (talk) 20:43, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Stupidus: How come you have so many of these 19th century sources? Do you have a whole library of them or something? Athenean (talk) 21:13, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Google books and Anemi and Internetarchive, and many other. Why do you ask? Stupidus Maximus (talk) 22:02, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Woodhouse says he was Greek. Why did you add Konitza but remove the word "Greek"? Athenean (talk) 22:22, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You ask too much. This good cop+bad cop in one man (Athenean), is boring. konitza says he was Albanian, so he cant be both greek and Albanian. maybe ortodox, yes. Stupidus Maximus (talk) 22:26, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@S.Maximus: It seems noone can take you seriously at least in this project.Alexikoua (talk) 23:18, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that User:S.Maximus confirms Fut's thoughts about his 'stupidity' [[7]]. Since his spi case is still open he finds it a perfect opportunity to wander around here and launch his ultranationalistic agenda and creating a mess in every article possible. This is his latest target, first he misused a 19th century source [[8]], then he added an offline source of an obviously nationalistic journal named 'Vatra' [[9]].Alexikoua (talk) 06:49, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lets make some points clear. Woodhouse is not a RS in history (he is not a historian), but as long as we have no RS speaking about his ethnicity, than Woodhouse may stay. If there is a RS, than he shall be gone.Balkanian`s word (talk) 07:15, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would appreciate if you finally explain why a professor with plenty of bibliography on the subject is called non-rs. By the way it's not only Woodhouse, actually its every single neutral 19th&20th century stuff.Alexikoua (talk) 07:19, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

O Thanasis Bagias einai enas xristianos arbanitis [10] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stupidus Maximus (talk • contribs) 12:33, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Very nice, you just learned something about the shadow theater Karagiozis and the character 'Thanasis Vagias'... By the way, this Arvanites=Albanians assumption was Guildenrich's major obsession.Alexikoua (talk) 13:12, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

When talking about the 19th century, Arvanites=Albanians is historians major obsession.Balkanian`s word (talk) 13:27, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Alex. By the way, this GUildenrich=Sulmues=Stu.M. assumption is your major obsession.Stupidus Maximus (talk) 13:34, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Balkanian, please get serious, you claim that Karagiozis' shadow character 'Vagias' was an Albanian? Unfortunately for you this character was made up from paper.@Stup.M.: Did I say something about Sulmues?Alexikoua (talk) 20:20, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, is the Albanian name for some reason in the lead, apart from creating wp:point situation?Alexikoua (talk) 20:26, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Since there is still no reply about why the Albanian alternative name was placed on lead, I suppose there is no problem on removing it. The 19th century source added by S.Maximus seems also to be problematic, but I'll check the bibliography to find a decent source about it. Moreover, I've removed the wikiproject that seems to be irrelevant with the subject.Alexikoua (talk) 20:45, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A 1827 Vagias' letter to Delvinaki's notables[edit]

Here is a link to a greek magazine of the early 20th century, Εθνικόν Ημερολόγιον Σκόκου, Vol. 27, 1912, p. 340 - 351. Here, a Greek doctor and author from Delvinaki, Christos Dallas ( Χρήστος Δάλλας ) gave us a survey about Vagias. He also gave us a Vagias' letter to the notables of Delvinaki. Let's see...

Πατριωτικόν χρέος και φιλική διάθεσις... με παρακινούν σήμερον να γράψω και εγώ προς την τιμιότητά σας ως αδελφός προς αδελφόν και πατριώτης προς πατριώτας. That means;

A patriotic duty and a friendly temper... stimulating me to write to your honesty as brother to brothers and patriot to patriots.

Εγώ λοιπόν ως άνθρωπος λογικός, ως αίμα ηπειρώτικον και ως αδελφός σας παντοτινός...

I, as a reasonable man, as of epirotan blood and as your brother...

We all know that the residents of Delvinaki were ( and are ) of greek descent. It's also obvious by this letter that Vagias did not considered himself only as a person who had the same religion with Delvinaki's people but also as a man of the same descent. Pavlos1988 (talk) 21:59, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What about Thanasis' brother Loukas, he appears to belong to another ethnicity (most probably due to the poor references used in this article).Alexikoua (talk) 08:06, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Loukas Vagias' article is a difficult case due to poor sources. Personally I believe it' s obvious that he wasn't albanian but we need sources. Pavlos1988 (talk) 14:53, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Loukas Vagias[edit]

Well, it seems that, at least, Henry Holland, considered him as Greek ( see p. 256 ). We have to add this helpful information to Loukas Vagias' article. Pavlos1988 (talk) 22:05, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]