Talk:Territorialism
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French contribution[edit]
Hello, to make the reflection on this subject progress in your linguistic area, look at the French article about territorialism : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorialisme Thank you for your works which inspired me. See you Marhizn5 13:45, 27 June 2020 (GMT Paris+2)
USSR and Jewish nationalist movements[edit]
I think it is safe to remove Jewish Autonomous Oblast until there is some evidence that it, or other Soviet projects (see e.g. OZET/Komzet) were related to the ITO. BTW, "nationalism" was a really bad word in the officially "internationalist" USSR. ←Humus sapiens ну? 02:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
- This is not an article about ITO, but about territorialism, so I have replaced it with some contextualisation. BobFromBrockley 12:43, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
- Please demonstrate relation of JAO, a Stalinist project, to the Territorialist movement. Until then, it doesn't belong here. Thanks. ←Humus sapiens ну? 12:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
- I have re-added the "see also" link to Jewish Autonomous Oblast that Humus sapiens put in and was subsequently removed as having nothing to do with the article. The JAO was a territorialist project, even if it was also a Stalinist project, and was supported, anxiously followed and indeed financed by masses of Jewish people in the West, as resonating with their territorialist aspirations (as shown, for example, by Henry Srebrnik's archival work on this). BobFromBrockley 15:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- Territorialism in general, especially under Steinberg's leadership, was not really nationalist. Steinberg was a very radical libertarian socialist, who opposed the very idea of a Jewish (or any) nation-state. Ironically, Steinberg, Erich Fromm and many other known supporters of territorialism, were way too internationalist for the Soviet government officials. Steinberg disliked JAO for it's authoritarian policies, but internationalism was clearly not an issue of disagreement. Laplandian 16:19, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
- Apart from the (ITO), within the USSR there was also a Territorialist effort in Ukraine, the Crimea and then towards Birobidzan, where a "Jewish Autonomous Region" was established in 1934. [1] Culturalrevival 11:45, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
- I have re-added the "see also" link to Jewish Autonomous Oblast that Humus sapiens put in and was subsequently removed as having nothing to do with the article. The JAO was a territorialist project, even if it was also a Stalinist project, and was supported, anxiously followed and indeed financed by masses of Jewish people in the West, as resonating with their territorialist aspirations (as shown, for example, by Henry Srebrnik's archival work on this). BobFromBrockley 15:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- Please demonstrate relation of JAO, a Stalinist project, to the Territorialist movement. Until then, it doesn't belong here. Thanks. ←Humus sapiens ну? 12:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
1905/1917[edit]
Is it really more correct to say that it was only possible to be a Zionist and territorialist up to 1905 (the formal break in the Zionist movement) rather than up to 1917 (the Balfour Declaration)? Syrkin's SZ continued to keep the territorialist option open, while explicitly naming itself Zionist. And even Zangwill, I believe, did not repudiate the term Zionist but continued to see his ITO as Zionist. BobFromBrockley 15:26, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Merging[edit]
Looking into specific definitions of "Territorialism", it seems the content and the title do not match. Per WP:COMMONNAME, territorialism refers to Landlordism according to Miriam-Webster [2], or Protestant concept or rather a generic idea of land-ownership by the masses; only in specific reference to Jewish politics and nationalism one can see territorialism being a shortened term for Territorial Zionism or Jewish territorialism - which we have an article for Jewish Territorialist Organization. I herewith propose this article to be merged to there, while making this page to become a disambig page to Jewish territorialism, Landlordism and land ownership.GreyShark (dibra) 16:41, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- That sounds like a good idea. Since nobody objected for a couple of months, I think we should give it a few more days and then go ahead. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:46, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
- @No More Mr Nice Guy: -
Done.GreyShark (dibra) 17:22, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
- @No More Mr Nice Guy: -
- This is odd. The word "territorialism" does not appear in either the articles on Land tenure or on Feudalism, which are the targets of the two redirects given as the first two alternative topics associated with this term (Land ownership and Landlordism). I have to imagine that the average reader who lands on this page and tries to find a relevant topic is going to leave more confused than when they arrived. --R'n'B (call me Russ) 22:06, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
- @R'n'B: as well as @Greyshark09, No More Mr Nice Guy, and Midas02: Russ, I agree. I just fixed 25+ links to Territorialism, and all but one were intended for the information at Jewish Territorialist Organization. The only link not about this topic was meant for Territory (animal). To me, it seems like the primary topic for "Territorialism" is Jewish territorialism, which redirects to Jewish Territorialist Organization. I'd like to propose redirecting Territorialism to Jewish Territorialist Organization and moving the disambiguation page to Territorialism (disambiguation), with a hatnote at Jewish Territorialist Organization. Since there was some prior discussion here, I've pinged everyone involved, as well as Midas02, who recently tagged this page for cleanup, to see if we can find some consensus. -- Natalya 18:03, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
- I doubt the Jewish Territorialist Organization, a fairly obscure and short lived organization with little influence, is the primary topic for the term "territorialism" (and a google search as well as some dictionary lookups seem to verify that), although I can see how in the context of Wikipedia systemic bias it might get the most links. I don't feel strongly about this either way, though, so count me as neutral on any changes you'd like to make. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:54, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
- I see what you are saying; thanks for sharing your thoughts. This helps me to clarify: I think "Jewish territorialism" would actually be the appropriate primary topic, but right now Jewish territorialism redirects to Jewish Territorialist Organization, and the article Jewish Territorialist Organization actually contains a substantial amount of general information on the concept of Jewish territorialism. That doesn't necessarily address your concern, and I know that you are counting yourself neutral, but I did want to clarify. -- Natalya 20:39, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
- If you look carefully at the JTO article, you'll see it's very poorly sourced. Take anything you see there with a grain of salt. This quite obscure topic has been sprinkled all over the encyclopedia, giving it very much undue weight. I just removed it from the Semitic People template, if you can believe that. There's a political reason people want to give this more weight than it deserves, but I won't bore you with that. After looking up some articles that link to the JTO, I have to say I think removing this disambig page would be a mistake. Again, google and dictionaries do not seem to support the idea that the term "territorialism" is mostly related to any Jewish organization. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:51, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
- These are good and important points. I'm simply coming from the disambiguation perspective, so I'm glad you mentioned this. The most appropriate choice may in fact be to leave things as is; I'm not sure now. There are some disambiguation issues, it would be helpful to get the perspective from a couple other seasoned disambiguators, so hopefully we'll hear from R'n'B and Midas02. -- Natalya 21:26, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
- Hello. Good to hear I'm with the 'seasoned disambiguators'. Joking aside, I'm going to sit this one out from the sideline for the time being. I don't have strong opinions about it, but just as others, I did find this dab page a bit awkward. Not really sure what to think of it. It's a fact most of the existant links had a relationship with the Jewish organisation, but that's also because that was the original topic of the article before it was converted to a dab page. I'll leave a note on the WP:DAB to get some others involved. --Midas02 (talk) 12:13, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- These are good and important points. I'm simply coming from the disambiguation perspective, so I'm glad you mentioned this. The most appropriate choice may in fact be to leave things as is; I'm not sure now. There are some disambiguation issues, it would be helpful to get the perspective from a couple other seasoned disambiguators, so hopefully we'll hear from R'n'B and Midas02. -- Natalya 21:26, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
- If you look carefully at the JTO article, you'll see it's very poorly sourced. Take anything you see there with a grain of salt. This quite obscure topic has been sprinkled all over the encyclopedia, giving it very much undue weight. I just removed it from the Semitic People template, if you can believe that. There's a political reason people want to give this more weight than it deserves, but I won't bore you with that. After looking up some articles that link to the JTO, I have to say I think removing this disambig page would be a mistake. Again, google and dictionaries do not seem to support the idea that the term "territorialism" is mostly related to any Jewish organization. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:51, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Natalya: as you know - Wikipedia is not a source, so you cannot rely on Wikipedian page links as criteria to define a page. Territorialism is mainly referring to Statism if any, and we have Japanese, Nigerian, Jewish and other statisms/territorialisms. I can understand making this page territorialism (disambiguation) but territorialism should link then to statism. Actually, considering other "territorialism" definitions, it is better to keep as is now.GreyShark (dibra) 17:35, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- I see what you are saying; thanks for sharing your thoughts. This helps me to clarify: I think "Jewish territorialism" would actually be the appropriate primary topic, but right now Jewish territorialism redirects to Jewish Territorialist Organization, and the article Jewish Territorialist Organization actually contains a substantial amount of general information on the concept of Jewish territorialism. That doesn't necessarily address your concern, and I know that you are counting yourself neutral, but I did want to clarify. -- Natalya 20:39, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
- I doubt the Jewish Territorialist Organization, a fairly obscure and short lived organization with little influence, is the primary topic for the term "territorialism" (and a google search as well as some dictionary lookups seem to verify that), although I can see how in the context of Wikipedia systemic bias it might get the most links. I don't feel strongly about this either way, though, so count me as neutral on any changes you'd like to make. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:54, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
- @R'n'B: as well as @Greyshark09, No More Mr Nice Guy, and Midas02: Russ, I agree. I just fixed 25+ links to Territorialism, and all but one were intended for the information at Jewish Territorialist Organization. The only link not about this topic was meant for Territory (animal). To me, it seems like the primary topic for "Territorialism" is Jewish territorialism, which redirects to Jewish Territorialist Organization. I'd like to propose redirecting Territorialism to Jewish Territorialist Organization and moving the disambiguation page to Territorialism (disambiguation), with a hatnote at Jewish Territorialist Organization. Since there was some prior discussion here, I've pinged everyone involved, as well as Midas02, who recently tagged this page for cleanup, to see if we can find some consensus. -- Natalya 18:03, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
- Comment - The problem is that someone decided to make "territorialism" to refer specifically to "Jewish territorialism" in Wikipedia, disregarding plenty of other territorialist topics in reliable sources. If you look into Google Books "territorialism" relevant topics on the first page of results (excluding Wikipedia mirror pages) appear to refer to: environmental territorialism, animal territorialism, general concept or territorialism/statism (in light of globalization), Japanese territorialism, Nigerian territorialism, Jewish territorialism. Obviously the dab page should reflect at least this variety.GreyShark (dibra) 17:25, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- All good points. And the point made earlier that this page used to be an article about Jewish territorialism may help explain why there were so many improper links to the disambiguation page. I agree now that it makes sense not to have a primary topic. Thanks for making some additions to the page. The page itself will need a bit of cleanup to conform to Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Disambiguation pages, but it's tagged for cleanup, and I'll let someone with a fresh pair of eyes take a look at it. -- Natalya 19:05, 7 March 2016 (UTC)