Talk:Rudyard Kipling/Archive 2

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Lead Sentence

Just to throw it out there, the lead sentence does not have to include Kipling's full name, because in the "Childhood and early life" section, the first sentence reads..."Rudyard Kipling was born Joseph Rudyard Kipling on 30 December 1865......" Avoiding redundancy here, so that is why I changed it. If anyone disagrees, feel free to explain your reasoning. Tinton5 (talk) 21:03, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Another suggestion would be to provide the Kipling's full name in lead somewhere, and then remove it from the early life section.

Its fine the way you have it now. Ceoil ^sláinte 21:33, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Biography and Children's names and accounts

Without invading privacy is it possible to get the names of his children? How many he had? A precis as to their fate? As biography goes this is like the otehrs I have read on him, but not very satisfying in that it tells me what he wrote, but not what he was like according to how other notable people saw him. DDB (talk) 02:34, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Graphics

I have uploaded from the New York Pubic Library site three interesting graphics of Kipling works to Commons. I love Kipling, but I leave it to the experts here to place these somewhere if you think they can enhance the piece. [1] [2] [3] MarmadukePercy (talk) 01:51, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Pronounciation of "Rudyard"?

For us non-native speakers, how is "Rudyard" pronounced? Is the "u" dark (like "new") or light (like "ruddy")? Is "y" more like "yellow" or "jungle"? Thanks, -- Syzygy (talk) 11:03, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Rud- as in ruddy and -yard as in the 3 feet length Dabbler (talk) 16:28, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

The modern preference certainly seems to be to pronounce it like Dabbler says. But my recollection is that the preference used to be slightly different: which was to put a strong emphasis on the first syllable and more-or-less lose the vowel sound from the second. Something like RUD-y'd. It's the difference between how an English person would pronounce "backward" as opposed to "back-yard". Bluewave (talk) 16:41, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't disagree with Bluewave's description of the pronunciation. In fact my own pronunciation is similar to that but I was trying to reflect others usage too. Dabbler (talk) 18:00, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Copyright problem

This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. ---- Yoenit (talk) 17:53, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Rudyard Kipling bibliography

I've suggested (and tagged) Rudyard Kipling bibliography and Rudyard Kipling: Collected Works for merging, and pointed the discussion link to here. Are there any concerns or suggestions, regarding this proposal? I was thinking that all the content&structure should be preserved, but presented in a single location. (See the 4 Featured list bibliographies, for examples of what it should be working towards.) Thanks. -- Quiddity (talk) 20:56, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Rudyard Kipling connection with scouting

I understand that at one point Rudyard lived next to Baden Powell. That must have been a reason for the connection between him Rudyard and scouting. Can anyone confirm this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scoutruud (talk • contribs) 21:00, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Reginald Dyer fund

The Reginald Dyer article states thast the fund was raised by the newspaper the Morning Post. It is possible that Kipling may have initiated that fund but at the very least there should be a citation that Kipling "started", as opposed to, say, contributed to the fund or the statement should be reworded. Dabbler (talk) 15:10, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Copyright status of his works globally?

Are his brilliant works now in public domain? If not, then when? 193.166.138.62 (talk) 09:21, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

British Raj links

The links to the British raj etc. are more specific to the time and locations in this article. More general ones such as India are more about the modern republic which does not cover some of the main areas in which Kipling lived and worked. Dabbler (talk) 12:45, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Please also not the discussion in Archive 1 about the use of Mumbai and BOmbay and the final agreement that this article should use Kipling's contemporary names, not the modern ones. Dabbler (talk) 02:16, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Looking for an Article Collaborator

Hello All -

Looking for a modicum (or more) of help to improve the poetry side of a military/poetry ☺ article in draft on Ronald Hopwood. This is what Time Magazine said of Hopwood: "His poem The Laws of the Navy takes precedence among Navy men even over Kipling's If..." (see http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,765140,00.html) so I thought this would be a good place to look. Any volunteers, please? JMOprof (talk) 23:49, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Martin Seymour-Smith censored

I earlier added this to the bibliography :

Martin Seymour-Smith, Rudyard Kipling, 1990. The author maintains that Kipling was a repressed homosexual who married Caroline Balestier although he was really in love with her brother Wolcott.

The change was reverted by Hello71 who sent me this :

Welcome to Wikipedia. Please be aware of Wikipedia's policy that biographical information about living persons must not include unsupported or inaccurate statements. Whenever you add possibly controversial statements about a living person to an article or any other Wikipedia page, as you did to Rudyard Kipling, you must include proper sources. If you don't know how to cite a source, you may want to read Wikipedia:Referencing for beginners for guidelines. Thank you. Hello71 (talk) 23:46, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Now the latest biography of Kipling has thus disappeared from the bibliography. Just to let you know, about Kipling and Hello71... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.251.223.170 (talk) 00:31, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Mistake regarding Kiplings Science Fiction

The article states that Kipling wrote only two science fiction stories. This is not correct. In fact, he wrote many. I hold in my hand right now an anthology of Kipling's science fiction published in 1992 (John Brunner Presents Kipling's Science Fiction, 1992, ISBN 0-312-82355-6 Parameter error in {{ISBN}}: checksum). The stories included in the anthology are listed below. They range from hard science fiction to speculative fiction:

A Matter of Fact
The Ship That Found Herself
007
"Wireless"
With the Night Mail
As Easy as A.B.C.
In the Same Boat
The Eye of Allah
Unprofessional
The Fairies' Siege

Steevithak (talk) 03:34, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Regarding Anti-Semitism

I believe the current post about the Swastika is misleading, as a casual reader would easily come away with the idea that Kipling has been unfairly labeled anti-Semitic rather than anti-Nazi. This seems to be a question much more up in the air. While I don't dispute that he had the swastika removed, H.Rider Haggard stated in his diary that "Kipling is of the opinion that we owe all our Russian troubles, and many others, to the machinations of the Jews." Ricketts, p 351

That said, I don't feel I know enough about the issue to add it here.

Digital sextant (talk) 11:15, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Kipling has been unfairly suspected of being pro-Nazi because of his use of the swastika before it was associated with the Nazis. As for his anti-semitism. I doubt you would find many British people of his time who were not suspicious of the supposed Jewish influence in the Russian Revolution. However, Kipling also made a Jew the hero of one of his stories in Puck of Pook's Hill for example. It was not so much a general anti-Semitism that they had but a distrust of some Jews. Dabbler (talk) 16:46, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Newspaper pix: Kipling in South Africa

The wikiMedia repro. of the newspaper photo of "Kipling in South Africa 1900-1901" is very poor quality. I was easily able to return it to full-range gray scale black and white, without degrading or altering any image details, including contrast, sharpness, halftone screen, etc. However, I'm not sure about how/where/whether to upload it. On the one hand, my cleanup is much more "decodable" as an image. On the other hand, the clipping is a century old and the artifact, as distinct from the image, is terribly faded, yellowed cheap newsprint; and perhaps it should be reproduced as it appears now, rather than when it was new. Specifically: --Should I upload it? --If so, where; as a replacement in the article? I can't figure out how to get it directly to WikiMedia. --Should I work on several other similarly decayed images in this article?Jim Stinson (talk) 00:57, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Re Funeral - rephrase needed?

I thank the references to his funeral (arguably in two parts, the cremation then the burial of ashes in Westminster Abbey) may need rephrasing, to read more sensibly. By mentioning the marble casket before the cremation you may give impression that it was used pre-cremation. Also note that in US English the 'coffin' of British English is usually read as 'casket', while in British English 'casket' is usually specifically used for containers of cremated ashes other than the traditional urn.Cloptonson (talk) 11:16, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

British English does not usually use casket for the cremated ashes, the most usual term would be urn. A British English casket is more used for something decorative like a jewellery box. Dabbler (talk) 13:46, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

@Risssa

Your rewrite- "...returned to England with his family..." is not appropriate because 1) RK was not returning to England, he was born in India, and 2) there's a strong implication in your words that he was with his family thereafter, which is incorrect. The previous "was taken by his family to England..." at least avoids the first error and probably avoids the second as well. And there's nothing clumsy about the passive voice- at the age of 5 it was hardly going to be his decision. Reverted. Gravuritas (talk) 09:21, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Regarding Kiplings house in Mumbai

This refers to the section on Kipling's birth. Can someone knowledgeable please clarify if the current house in JJ School of Art and Architecture is the same as the original one (as is mentioned in the BBC news item)? Or was the original one torn down (as is mentioned in this wiki - without any citation)? I have changed the wording of the wiki meanwhile to "may have been torn down" since the BBC news article sggests that it is the original building that stands today in the campus as Dean's house (what an unimaginative name. ugh!)

Also if the bungalow is still used as a residence? Or it it an abandoned one (as claimed in teh current wiki- again citation missing). Candid photos on the net (other than the polished ones from newspapers) certainly seem to suggest an abandoned house, but a more dependable viewpoint preferably of someone from JJ itself or someone who has personally visited this place adn verified it, would be useful Notthebestusername (talk) 11:49, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Lead portrait

An infobox portrait should be proportioned such that the man's features are clearly visible (in all resolutions). To stick that uncropped framed thing into the infobox is just objectively less beneficial. -- Director (talk) 01:23, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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checked -- Elmidae (talk) 08:21, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Who?

Who are they? "Trooper Aberline’s sacrifice was to have an impact on the Boers and his legacy went far beyond his rusting cross in the Lichtenburg cemetery which lies close to that of Edith Mathews." 117.221.189.157 (talk) 06:21, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Agreed the whole paragraph is very confusing and the reference does not support the text so I have deleted it. Dabbler (talk) 13:29, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Kiplings's view on Jallian wala bagh massacre.

I have been researching several places about Rudyard Kipling's point of view regarding the massacre. I found this in several news papers. Here are some links. http://www.firstpost.com/politics/a-sorry-apology-david-cameron-at-jallianwala-bagh-632541.html http://www.telegraphindia.com/1130221/jsp/frontpage/story_16587696.jsp#.Vxu0szArJhF http://www.historyinanhour.com/2013/02/20/amritsar-massacre-summary/ https://books.google.com/books?id=yzzlCgAAQBAJ&pg=PT506&lpg=PT506&dq=kipling+dyer+morning+post&source=bl&ots=EISShgiBD7&sig=3i-0UE7cYMx1W6DCcSz1DKRnSeY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiKl62lqKXMAhVFx4MKHe4rAhsQ6AEIRDAF#v=onepage&q=kipling%20dyer%20morning%20post&f=false http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2013/02/21/cameron-in-amritsar-apologies-for-a-colonial-massacre and many others you can search on google.

All of the links mention that Kipling supported General Dyer's order to open fire on unarmed people. It also claim that he donated 50 or 100 pound to fund to honor General Dyer. When I edited Kipling's page with above mentioned links as citation, it was removed. I would like to know why it is removed ?

Please Note: I am not regular contributor on wikipedia. I do not mean to hurt anyone. All I think is, it is important to mention such a view of a person. Ripplejb (talk) 19:00, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

I shouldn't wonder if good sources can be found for this; I've heard about it before and it rings true (Kipling took his colonialism straight, at least intermittently). However, the issue is that socking this into the article without any thematical connection, or even as a 'controversy' section of its own, is quite WP:UNDUE. This is a biographical article, not an examination of colonial mores, and frankly this particular stance is not more "controversial" than Kipling's inventively vindictive rants about "the Huns" - which, you will notice, are covered in context. If you can find a good place to add a one-sentence mention of his response to the massacre, I'd be all for it, but I can't see one at this point, and I'd be strongly opposed to manufacturing some UNDUE hook just so this tidbit can go in.-- Elmidae (talk) 19:09, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Point taken. I am sorry for inconvenience and thank you very much for the reply. Ripplejb (talk) 00:47, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

There is a commonly-repeated story that Kipling started the fund for Colonel (acting Brigadier-General) Dyer's retirement, that he was the first contributor and gave a large sum, and that he called Dyer 'the man who saved India'. This does not seem to be true. The fund was started by the jingoist newspaper The Morning Post, and it was the Post which called Dyer 'the man who saved India'. Derek Sayer of the University of Alberta, in 'British Reaction to the Amritsar Massacre 1919-1920' (Past and Present, No.131, Oxford University Press, May 1991, pp.130-164), notes (p.158):-

'Rudyard Kipling sent £10 (with the laconic and, I believe, thoroughly accurate observation, "He did his duty, as he saw it").'

http://www.academia.edu/4297399/British_Reaction_to_the_Amritsar_Massacre_1919-1920

Kipling was probably more of a Times person than a Morning Post person, and the Times was anti-Dyer. But he was likely to sympathise with the British community in India who felt physically threatened by Indian nationalism. Many of them made small contributions to Dyer's fund, often less than 10 rupees each because most of them were not well-off. The fund ended up with more than £26,300, so Kipling's £10 was not very significant, and his comment on Dyer is guarded and double-edged. Khamba Tendal (talk) 18:01, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Migration status

Those born before 1949 in any part of the Empire, are British subjects, which includes anyone born in India. If he isn't considered an Indian person, then many of those in the category, including native Indians, should also be removed.
Also, by the standards of many articles on the Wiki, the place in which an individual is born, is considered vital part of the identity, and the relevant categories are added. Kipling obviously moved to the UK with his family, which would technically make him an immigrant, the same even today, regardless of their legal status currently. Uamaol (talk) 00:49, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

He may have been born in India, but he definitely wasn't ethnically Indian. Can you really be considered an immigrant to the country of your parents and ancestors? If someone was born while their parents were on holiday or working abroad as Kipling and many others were and still are, I don't think that they really should be considered as immigrants when they come back. Dabbler (talk) 20:33, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

I concur. Two British subjects go to India to work and have a son there. That does not make him an Indian, and when he returns to the country of his nationality, it does not make him an immigrant. However, I don't really know the technicalities of this stuff, specifically not late Victorian usage (although I suspect they were a lot more intent on such offspring remaining capital B British than we would be today).-- Elmidae (talk) 08:26, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Ethnicity doesn't make a difference. If it did, then that would mean that the many diaspora communities throughout the world would have no right to associate with the countries which they happen to be and raised in, especially the majority of the population of the USA.
Kipling was born in India, spent the first 5 years of his life growing up there, then spent 12 years schooling in Britain and went back aged 17, spending another 7 years there, which meant that by the time he returned to Britain in 1889, he would have already spent half of his life living in India; the land of his birth. The Wiki definition of Emigration is "the act of leaving one's resident country with the intent to settle elsewhere". By this definition, and the aforementioned, he must therefore, be an "Indian emigrant to the UK". Uamaol (talk) 13:41, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

I doubt this definition is accepted on WP. For example, I have never seen Doris Lessing (who was born in Iran to British parents) been described as an immigrant, nor do I expect to. How about George Orwell (born in Bengal)? Can't see any immigrant categories on these pages, and I highly doubt you'll get far trying to add them... --Elmidae (talk) 16:02, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

If someone is ethnically descended from a particular nation, such as an Irish descendant born in the US, then it is quite normal to expect that they would have the right to be more interested and feel connected to that country and its culture rather than one which they have no such connection to. It has nothing to do with citizenship or immigrant status so your comment that "Ethnicity doesn't make a difference." is manifestly untrue. In the days before easy world travel, many people lived overseas for decades before returning "Home" to their mother country and they taught their children that that home country was theirs not the one they happened to be living in. The very fact that Kipling was sent away from his parents at the age of five for education in a British school and milieu is evidence that he and his family were considered British not Indians. Dabbler (talk) 16:51, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

You've misunderstood my point but have also agreed with it; I assume unintentionally. If Ethnicity mattered then the many people in the USA of Irish or German decent would not be able to integrate with society as they will only feel associated with their own people. Kipling must have had some association with India, otherwise he would not have returned and got a job at a newspaper. Kipling returned to India for 7 years to work when finished schooling aged 17. If he felt no association with the place, why would he have returned? Regarding your removal of the "Anglo-Indian people" tag, he meets the definition perfectly for the term. "Anglo-Indians can refer to at least two groups of people: those with mixed Indian and British ancestry, and people of British descent born or living in the Indian subcontinent". He and his parents were technically Anglo-Indian, by the latter definition. Do you mean to say that Anglo-Indians of today are outsiders? Read below regarding my definition of the term "British". Technically Gandhi, and everyone born in the Empire before 1949, is "British". Uamaol (talk) 14:17, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

The Category:Anglo-Indian people says "This page lists citizens of India, Pakistan or Bangladesh or inhabitants of colonial India of mixed British and Indian descent, or people whose ancestry is such." Kipling is not such a person. DuncanHill (talk) 14:40, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Then the category is therefore incorrectly representing its definition. Kipling is an Anglo-Indian. Uamaol (talk) 00:37, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Emigrant, not immigrant. On WP, the term "British" usually refers to the citizenship, rather than the geographical idea, except when dealing with soldiers. Kipling is not referred to as "British", but rather "English", which is what he assumingly identified as. Wiki definition of "British people": "are the citizens of the United Kingdom, British Overseas Territories, and Crown Dependencies; and their descendants". As he was born in India, that would technically define him as being Anglo-Indian. The definition again for those who did not fully read what I wrote: "Emigration: "the act of leaving one's resident country with the intent to settle elsewhere". And again: "Kipling was born in India, spent the first 5 years of his life growing up there, then spent 12 years schooling in Britain and went back aged 17, spending another 7 years there, which meant that by the time he returned to Britain in 1889, he would have already spent half of his life living in India; the land of his birth." By this definition, and the aforementioned, he emigrated at least 3 times in his life before the age of 25. Again, "emigrant" not "immigrant". Uamaol (talk) 14:17, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

He was not an immigrant to the Uk, though he came close to being one to the USA. Johnbod (talk) 17:15, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Not an immigrant, but instead an emigrant three times before his was 25, which is what this is about. Uamaol (talk) 14:17, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

I think we are mixing up two things here. One is "Anglo-Indian", the other "Indian emigrant to the UK". These are not the same and need to be addressed separately.

I do agree that Kipling was an Anglo-Indian. This is an uncontroversial description that you will often see applied to Kipling and other white Raj British subjects living in India. Our article Anglo-Indians states in the lede: "can refer to at least two groups of people: those with mixed Indian and British ancestry, and people of British descent born or living in the Indian subcontinent" - the latter is the sense often applied to Kipling. - Note, I still ask that User:Uamaol not re-add the category until we have reached consensus about this.

I do not agree that Kipling was an Indian emigrant, simply because this term is not used for people of British descent, born as British subjects. I have given examples above and would like to know whether Uamaol would consider these to fall under the category as well. -- Elmidae (talk) 19:10, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

As I mentioned above the Category:Anglo-Indian people says "This page lists citizens of India, Pakistan or Bangladesh or inhabitants of colonial India of mixed British and Indian descent, or people whose ancestry is such." Kipling is not such a person. DuncanHill (talk) 21:46, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

The usage of Anglo-Indian to mean a British person born or living in India was abandoned more than a century ago. Current usage is only to refer to people with mixed British-Indian ancestry as Anglo-Indian. I used the definition given in the category description to determine that Kipling did not belong in that category.

Kipling went back to India after he left school because his parents were there and he had an opportunity to earn a living there using their connections, as did many other people. He may have felt some nostalgia for his childhood but as soon as he started gaining some fame and fortune from his writing, he left again to go to the US because his wife was American. He then went to Britain when he found he preferred to live there. He never returned to India even though he had the means if he had the wish. Dabbler (talk) 01:11, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

The term may not be used, but it is incorrect to say he wasn't an emigrant to the UK, which he was twice before the age of 25. I shall repeat. All those born in the Empire before 1949 are British subjects, regardless of their ancestry. Thwta would mean all those in the category born before 1949 must be removed. The only examples I ihave found above relate to "immigrants". This discussion is in relation to a tag which is disputing whether or not he emigrated from India, which he did, twice before the age of 25. Uamaol (talk) 00:37, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

You do not seem to be able to convince anyone here that Kipling should be considered an immigrant from India to the UK. So you will not achieve consensus for the change. Also you definition of Anglo-Indian is completely out dated and has not been in use for more than a century. The category considers the modern definition and to try and bring in Victorian concepts to a modern category is just confusing and not encyclopedic. Dabbler (talk) 01:23, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Of course Kipling was Anglo-Indian. Ethnicity is irrelevant as people can go to any country in the world. (165.120.157.157 (talk) 17:11, 2 April 2016 (UTC))

Anglo-Indian in the original, non-ethnic, sense is rather a vague term. It happens that I have often heard it, and continue to do so, since it is by no means obsolete, whatever the dictionary says. I do not think the Anglo-Indians I have known would have applied it to Kipling or his parents. They were not committed to an Indian career like members of the ICS, say. Nor was there any Indian tradition on the family, of the sort he described in his story "The Tomb of his Ancestors". I don't think he would have called himself an Anglo-Indian. Nor does it make sense to call him an immigrant from IndiaSeadowns (talk) 22:06, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

What do reliable sources say about the subject of the thread, specifically regarding Kipling? That's what wikipedia should reflect. (Hohum ^@) 22:28, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

The scholars look on him as criticising Anglo-India from the outside, that is, not as Anglo-Indian himself But this is not really aquestion of fact. If you choose to call him Anglo-Indian nobody can refute you. As one myself, I feel he wasn't one! Regret can't sign this properly because computer won't type tilde. Seadowns. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seadowns (talk • contribs) 20:08, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

I would add that people of mixed blood used to be called Eurasians, but in an early piece of PC the term Anglo-Indian was officially applied to them. This left the other sort of Anglo-Indians, such as described in the story I mentioned, without a separate name of their own, thus causing some confusion. Seadowns (talk) 12:43, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

'Peak of career'

I had considered putting a request quotation template into a disputed paragraph, but I feel simply reverting to my own previous edit would more quickly generate discussion and resolution. I have not seen the cited source.

From my perspective, my edit correlated with the previous sentence, which states, "Kipling had no sympathy with or understanding of Irish nationalism".

My edit was the following: "The British scholar David Gilmour wrote Kipling's lack of sympathy about nationalism could be seen in". Fellow editor Elmidae suggested that Kipling didn't lack sympathy for nationalism. Perhaps my change wasn't specific enough - Kipling had a lack of sympathy for Irish nationalism in particular, even if he had sympathy for nationalism in other contexts.

Even if the source explicitly suggests "lack of understanding of Ireland", I still maintain that this is an over-simplification or a lack of clarity on the author's part: lack of understanding of Irish nationalism does not equate to lack of understanding "of Ireland" per se. Kipling was clearly not ignorant of Ireland. It is merely a lack of understanding for a specific political outlook, and possibly more likely to be lack of sympathy rather than of understanding.

I will alter my edit to reflect this. --24.182.92.247 (talk) 19:37, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry, that still is a misrepresentation. Gilmour's point is that Kipling made an actual misjudgement in treating John Redmond as someone trying to actively damage UK dominion; while it is generally agreed that Redmond had no such intentions and was working for what he considered the good of Empire. Thus Kipling lacked not only sympathy for but, more fundamentally, understanding of the political realities underlying Home Rule. - Or such is Gilmour's reasoning; which neither of us has to agree with. However this is what we report and reference (i.e., Gilmour's argumentation), so the wording can't justifiably be watered down here.

I have reverted to the original again. But if you wish to add some other sources that discuss a different interpretation, please do feel free to add the respective material. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 11:22, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Two Comments

1. I think the article understates the sadism of Mrs Holloway, as well as failing to mention her foul son, who took part in tormenting the child Kipling. Captain Holloway seems to have been comparatively decent, but weak, and I believe he died while the Kipling children were there. 2. I also think a bit more could be made of Kipling's later adult stories, such as They, The Wish house, or Friendly Brook. They stand very high in literature. Seadowns (talk) 13:19, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

My Boy Jack

Does anyone have knowledge of whether the poem 'My Boy Jack' might refer to Boy Jack Cornwell VC ? Peter R Hastings 12:51, 30 December 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by P R Hastings (talk • contribs)

Jack Cornwell died, and achieved fame, in June 1916, My Boy Jack was written in 1915, so no, it can't have been. I think the suggestion in our article, that "Jack" was chosen as a generic name, particularly suitable for a sailor, is on the money. DuncanHill (talk) 01:28, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Oh, I think our article is wrong on the date of the poem. The Kipling Society's Reader's Guide suggests late September, early October 1916 for the composition of the poem. "My Boy Jack" (notes edited by Brian Southam). DuncanHill (talk) 01:33, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

It goes on to say "Given the occasion of the poem, heading the reports on the Battle of Jutland with its great loss of life, ‘Jack’ is evidently the eponymous Jack Tar; and if one is seeking to attach the poem to any individual ‘Jack’, that would be young John Cornwell, the boy sailor (referred to in the press as ‘the Boy Jack’) whose bravery at the Battle of Jutland was recognised with the award of a posthumous Victoria Cross on 15 September 1916." So - there may be something in what you suggest, but I doubt we will ever have a definitive answer. DuncanHill (talk) 01:38, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Colourised picture

Hey, I recently colourised a picture of Kipling and I was wondering if it could made it up to the infobox. I believe it looks better than the one which leads the article and other wikis such as the Spanish one already have this version. --Macesito (talk) 12:57, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Hmm. Dunno, I quite like the current box image :) --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 13:40, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Iam one of those who believe in authenticity rather than improvement, besides as we should all know, the world was black and white back then. See explanation of black and white photos Dabbler (talk) 19:38, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

@dabbler The comic has brought me a tear :). And I share the same opinion than you. I colourise because I believe it brings a closer glimpse of history, but I understand it can never be accurate enough and I swear I would never colourise art, such as films. That shall remain untouched.--Macesito (talk) 08:07, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

I personally prefer the current image... -- Director (talk) 13:24, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Sacrilege! You deserved to be fried at dawn. What's that in his hand- a folded pair of Ray-Bans?? Martinevans123 (talk) p.s. maybe you could add colour to just a third of the film?

I love this and would like to see it as the featured photograph. That's my five cents. --Discott (talk) 21:35, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

No, I don't think we should use this. Johnbod (talk) 02:25, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
It's nice work, but as long as the original is of such good quality, I don't think we ought to sidestep to retouched material... --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 08:52, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

Reputation in India

I really cannot remember how to do the insanely complex hieroglyphic keystrokes required for inline citations, so I can't directly correct the text, but it's unfortunate that the article is lying about Kipling in relation to Colonel (acting Brigadier) Dyer, the author of the Amritsar Massacre of 1919. Kipling was not a 'prominent supporter' of Dyer and did not call him 'the man who saved India', a phrase originated by the Morning Post newspaper. Nor did Kipling start the appeal for Dyer's retirement fund -- that was the Morning Post again. (And it wasn't a 'homecoming prize', as the article falsely claims; it was a retirement fund, because the army refused Dyer any further appointments, in other words sacked him. Dyer, broken by the knowledge of what he had done, did not live long to enjoy his retirement.) The Indian author Subhash Chopra, cited by the article, is however wrong to say that Kipling did not donate to the fund. He reportedly gave £10, out of a total of more than £26,000 raised. All Kipling said of Dyer was, 'He did his duty, as he saw it,' which, as I've mentioned before, is guarded and double-edged. Once again, see:- https://www.academia.edu/4297399/British_Reaction_to_the_Amritsar_Massacre_1919-1920

False claims made against Kipling by modern Indian nationalists need to be considered in light of the fact that the current Hindu nationalist prime minister, Narendra Modi, himself reportedly instigated the Gujarat riots of 2002, which killed at least as many people as the Amritsar Massacre. And Modi clearly does not suffer from the remorse that destroyed Dyer. Khamba Tendal (talk) 18:22, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Do you want to suggest a modified version of this section here? That paper certainly is a good source, and presumably at least as if not more reliable than the newspaper article currently referenced. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 19:24, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Nationality

I don't like this description of the author as being "English". He was born in India to an English father and Scottish mother. I'm not sure how that qualifies Kipling as English? And as the article later says under "childhood" he himself considered himself "Anglo-Indian".

What gives you the right to challenge this man's assertion of nationality? I would suggest that "British Indian" might be more appropriate. Or at least "British." It certainly seems to me that is is quite wrong to label him as "English". John2o2o2o (talk) 01:15, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Kipling was a British subject as was everyone born within what was then the British Empire. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.53.180 (talk) 09:35, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

We've been round that bush some 18 months ago, see Talk:Rudyard_Kipling/Archive_2#Migration_status. Consensus at the time was that the Victorian usage of "Anglo-Indian" should not see current application in biography articles. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 09:54, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Alice Kipling (*nee Macdonald) was born in Sheffield despite her Scottish surname. Personally I would say that he was culturally English and British nationality.Dabbler (talk) 18:22, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

He was born in India, this means he was an Indian. Stop being a bigot. 2601:646:8D00:9C50:8CB9:F8D9:1631:C6E4 (talk) 21:31, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Bigotry aside, I think you'll find that the law on British Nationality in 1865 did not allow for that possibility. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:36, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

What does that have to do with anything? 24.6.59.15 (talk) 20:15, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

Er... his nationality, perhaps? If you're not sure take a look at British Nationality Act 1772. JezGrove (talk) 21:49, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

In 1876 Indians outside of the Princely States became British subjects anyway. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.241.96 (talk) 11:47, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

(To: Elmidae, HiLo48, Chewings72 - possibly all the same person)

Please do not hijack Wikipedia for your own narrow-minded elitist agenda. As far as I am aware, Wikipedia deals only in facts and not in airy fairy abstract notions of identity. Most people accept that 'nationality' denotes the country of your birth, regardless of later adopted citizenship. Nationality is not the same as citizenship. As a general rule, if it can’t be proved, best not to write it.

As regards Kipling : Kipling was an English writer – false; Kipling was an Indian writer – true; Kipling was an English-language writer – true; Kipling was Indian - true; Kipling was British - false; Kipling was English/Scottish/Irish/Welsh - false; Kipling was a British citizen/subject – true; Kipling’s birth parents were British – false (not proven).

Therefore, Kipling was Indian and an English-language writer. So stop censoring facts.(Kenwikiman) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kenwikiman (talk • contribs) 20:56, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Please read WP:AGF and WP:NPA. HiLo48 (talk) 22:49, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

That's all very nice, but we prefer to stick to the preponderance of verifiable sources. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 22:54, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Nationality relates to culture and genetics: Link. What if Rudyard was born on a 747 to a beautiful stewardess and pilot in Bombay, the plane having to make an emergency landing for 10 minutes for the reason, before taking off again for destinations unknown? Lord Milner (talk)

The first Boeing 747 wasn't rolled out until 30 September 1968. But 30 December 1865 predates the Kitty Hawk flighs by about 38 years. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:41, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Rejected Companion of Honour (CH)

This suggests he was appointed CH in 1917 without his consent, and then had to reject it. We say nothing about this in the article. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:30, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

That's news to me, actually. I know he declined a knighthood in 1899 and in 1903, and the Order of Merit in 1921 and in 1924. Not saying it's untrue, but we'd need good sourcing. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 01:08, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Well, here it is. It's all in his letter to PM Bonar Law of 2 July 1917, but see particularly Note 1 for clarification (which also tells us he declined not 2 but 3 knighthoods, a KCB, a KCMG, and a KBE). -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 01:17, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

(e/c)I think it's a tale that grew in the telling. Ned Sherrin's Oxford Dictionary of Humorous Quotations (4th ed., 2008) says objecting to having been appointed a Companion of Honour without his consent: "How would you like it if you woke up and found yourself Archbishop of Canterbury?" and attributes it to "letter to Bonar Law 1917, sourced to Charles Carrington's Rudyard Kipling (1978). Turning to Carrington we find (pages 526-527) "And again, in spite of that [his warning Bonar Law that he would not accept a KBE], he received an official notification a few days later, that without his knowledge he had been appointed a Companion of Honour. This third time his temper was ruffled and he wrote to Bonar Law: "how would you like it if you woke up and found they had made you Archbishop of Canterbury?"".

The tale is told rather more fully, and less dramatically, in "Appendix B: Honours and Rewards" of Lord Birkenhead's Rudyard Kipling (1978). On 1st July 1917 (a Sunday) K received a letter from the Acting Secretary, Order of Companions of Honour, saying his name was on the list of those recommended to the King for the Order, and would he fill out and return a form. K wired the same day to say he had not been consulted and did not accept. He also wired Law to the same effect. Law telegrammed in reply, also on the 1st, "The notice sent to you is intended to ascertain if you wish it or not. If not, so reply, and that is the end of it. I did not know that list had been completed to the extent of sending out these notices or I should have stopped yours at least till I had communicated with you as I know your views". K wrote back to Law on the 2nd, pointing out that nothing in the Acting Secretary's letter indicated that it was not irretrievably settled. "How would you like to be waked up on a Sunday morning by a letter from the Acting Secretary of the Clerical Aid Society informing you that your name was among the list of Bishops that has been recommended to the King? Wouldn't you assume that the Archbishop of Canterbury had landed you at last into his fold [Law was of course a Presbyterian] and wouldn't you at once collaborate with me in a bill against the imposition of arbitrary honours on the King's loyal subjects?" Law wrote back on the 3rd "I would have written to you sooner but I have been excessively busy the last two days [he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, Leader of the House of Commons, effectively deputy PM, and Leader of the Conservative Party, and there was a war on you know] ... a quite different course has been adopted with regard to these Honours from that previously applied ... the preliminary notice has gone direct from the Palace instead of through the Prime Minister. I do not think that this is a good plan and it will not probably be adopted again..."

The wording given by Birkenhead is confirmed by Thomas Pinney's The Letters of Rudyard Kipling Volume 4: 1911-19 (1999) tho' with "and Swift MacNeil [an Irish Nationalist and therefore a humorously unlikely ally of K and Law] in a bill against the imposition of arbitrary honours on the King's loyal subjects?" after "collaborate with me".

So - no, he wasn't appointed CH. He was sent a poorly-worded letter following an administrative change, and he did not say "How would you like it if you woke up and found yourself Archbishop of Canterbury?". DuncanHill (talk) 01:38, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Vide the power of a well-stocked bookshelf. Much obliged! --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 14:14, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

@Elmidae: My pleasure, and thank you @JackofOz: for asking in the first place. I enjoyed looking that up. DuncanHill (talk) 14:33, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

You're welcome. The wash up is that the authorities wanted him to have a KCB, a KCMG, a KBE, a CH, an OM, and the Poet Laureateship. He declined all of them. That must be some sort of record. Perhaps a short section detailing the offers and his responses would be useful? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:16, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Archive version of current website?

Is there any good reason why the External links section entry for the Kipling Society points to an archive copy on the Wayback Machine? The website is flourishing and up-to-date.--Verbarson (talk) 11:16, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

No idea - doesn't seem to make sense... I'll switch it out. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 19:00, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

It was marked as dead by Zanimum in May 2020 and replaced with the archive copy by a bot. DuncanHill (talk) 19:21, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Because...they changed from www.kipling.org.uk to www.kiplingsociety.co.uk at some point. It's easy to spot when I actually read my own post, but why read it when cut-and-paste lets me rush on without paying attention?--Verbarson (talk) 19:42, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Lack of facts leading to legacy debate

The legacy section does a nice, balanced job of explaining the ambiguous, unsettled nature of Kipling’s legacy. However, the rest of the article doesn’t clearly explain what led to his muddled legacy. DaxMoon (talk) 13:41, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Return to London section

"... to visit the Hill family...." -- what "Hill family"??? A "Professor Hill" is mentioned next -- what "Professor Hill"???

K boarded with Professor and Mrs S. A. Hill at Belvedere House in Allahabad, they became good friends, especially Mrs Hill (Edmonia). Some information here. DuncanHill (talk) 17:53, 28 February 2022 (UTC)