Talk:Mande Bori

Notablty

As far as I can see Manding Bory/Mande Bori/Mande Bakari/Abu Bakr is not notable. Notability is not inherited, being the brother or grandfather of somebody who is notable doesn't confer notability to that person. Whilst he is not the same person as Abu Bakr (mansa), that article does go into some detail about the two people that share the same name. Unless there is enough notability for Manding Bory to warrant a separate article, the inclusion in Abu Bakr (mansa) and a redirect to that article is the best compromise available. --John B123 (talk) 21:14, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

@John B123: I am not sure when you reviewed the article, but the current sources provide amble evidence of the subject's notability. JBchrch talk 00:07, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

@JBchrch: I reviewed this version[1]. Do you have access to the sources? The first reference doesn't seem to verify the content of the article. The two with publicly viewable extracts don't mention the subject and the others aren't online. I'm struggling to see how we can verify that the sources provide WP:SIGCOV as required by WP:GNG. I'm also puzzled why you moved the article to Mande Bory as that variant of name isn't mentioned in the article. --John B123 (talk) 05:17, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

@John B123: I have access to most of the sources and was able to verify at least the most basic information about the subject. All the sources I looked at have a decent amount of material about the subject but—as the article indicates—you have to play around with the spelling to find it. If you cmd-F "Mandé Bory" in Niane 1959 source you will find the relevant parts. In Gomez 2008 (which I just re-added) it's "Manden Bukari". In Jansen 1996, it's "Mande Bori" etc. When I moved the article I forgot to change the last name, but will remedy this right now. JBchrch talk 09:26, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I hope my revision has improved the article. In particular, I would like to draw attention to his holding the office of kankoro-sigui. Now, I haven't been able to find a lot of information on what exactly that entails or what his achievements in office were, but it seems to indicate he held the second-most-powerful office in the Mali Empire, which ought to be enough to make him notable. I know there's a fair amount of literature on the Sunjata Epic I haven't read, so I'm optimistic that the article could eventually be expanded further. Ornithopsis (talk) 00:12, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I added a couple more sources, so there are now unambiguously multiple secondary sources with non-trivial coverage of the topic, which attest to the importance of the topic beyond relationships to notable ones. However, one of the sources I added apparently flagged some kind of predatory journal alert when I tried to submit the edit—but I think it's the article that I only cited for its quotation of a different source I am unable to access. If deemed necessary, that citation could be removed until someone could confirm the original source. Ornithopsis (talk) 21:03, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

@Ornithopsis: I have removed the reference to the predatory journal, but left the original source, before seeing your comment here. Feel free to proceed as you please about this. JBchrch talk 21:16, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Spelling of name

As noted in the article, there are several variant spellings of the name in use, and I have no idea which is correct. When I wrote this article, I chose to use the spelling Mande Bori, which had seemed the most common while I was researching, but I'm not entirely sure if that is the correct name. "Manding Bory" has 32 results on Google Scholar, "Manden Bory" has four, "Mande Bory" has eight, "Manding Bori" has twelve, "Manden Bori" has 35, and "Mande Bori" has 24. "Mande" is also given an accent, as "Mandé", sometimes. Adding that up, "Bori" has 71 results and "Bory" has 44, and "Manding" has 44 results, "Manden" has 39, and "Mande" has 32. However, "Manding Bori", combining the most common spellings of the individual parts, is the third-rarest combination. Ornithopsis (talk) 20:35, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

@Ornithopsis: Not sure if you are aware, but the applicable policy is WP:COMMONNAME. You seem to know this subject better than I do, so I will personally take no view on the matter and let you move the article wherever you feel appropriate. Other editors can chime in of course. JBchrch talk 21:20, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm aware. It's just hard to be sure how to apply it in the context of such an obscure topic wherein no one spelling makes up more than a third of use. Any input from others would be appreciated, but for the time being I'm sticking with Mande Bori for consistency. Ornithopsis (talk) 21:33, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Manimory

A few scattered references, e.g. [2], [3], [4], seem to suggest to various degrees that a patron spirit of the Dozo hunters, Manimory or Mande Mori, is identified with Sunjata's brother Mande Bori. However, I haven't been able to find any statement stronger than a book review claiming "continuity of Manding Bori and Manimory...seems evident" and most literature on Mande Bori and Manimory does not discuss the connection. I haven't been able to access many of the sources on Manimory; if anyone could find sources clearly linking the two that would be great. If the link is confirmed, there would be three main aspects of the figure to discuss: Abu Bakr, the more or less historical brother of Mari Jata and grandfather of Mansa Musa mentioned by Ibn Khaldun; Mande Bori, the semi-historical brother and companion of Sunjata described by oral tradition; and Manimory, the hunter spirit of West African hunter folklore. Complicating things is the fact that "Mande Mori" seems to also be a term for West African muslim families in general. Ornithopsis (talk) 18:24, 25 July 2021 (UTC)