Talk:MP4 file format/Archive 1

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Untitled

I removed the following block because this this is talking about the MP4 container, which has nothing to do with the MP3 format. Peter Nelson 01:40, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

*.mp4 is most commonly used as the alternative to *.mp3 on an Apple iPod and in iTunes. The quality of the AAC codec that is stored in *.mp4 is higher than MPEG-1 Audio Layer 3, although not as widely used in computer and hardware players as the *.mp3.

Open Standard? License?

What is the license for using the MP4 container format, do you have to pay royalties? Is MP4 an open standard? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.49.148.180 (talk) 21:15, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Compression Ratio and listening tests?

This article needs some statistics on compression ratio and listening test data. I'm trying to determine how an X-bitrate mp4 might compare to a Y-bitrate mp3. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.202.0.41 (talk) 06:22, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Improvments over .mov ?

Just looking at the comparison of container formats page, it appears that not only does mov have all of the features of mpeg-4, but that it actually has more features than mpeg-4. Unless someone can write what these "Improvements" are, I'm going to remove that phrase. -Ctachme 15:36, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Comparision with mp3

I think the article would benefit by drawing a distinct line between mp3 and mp4. There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding players which are capable of mp3 playback and mp4 playback. Chris 13:50, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Not much info

Methinks this should be expanded. Is it just me or is there no info on MP4 on the Web?? Junkbot44 14:00, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Download

How do you download the song?

Help

You probably need to get a file converter. You can get one free at download.com, and convert them into something that your MP4 Player recognizes. If not- try contacting the manufactuer.

Also- I recently bought a MP4 Player. Somebody ought to submit a whole new article about this. This doesn't help at all.

MP4 Devices and marketing

There's a lot of marketing of "MP4 players" . They are marketing them as superior devices over MP· Players just because the MP4 number over the MP3 one. These should be discussed here in my opinion. 6:30, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Are you referring to this? Chinese MP4/MTV Player --Mcoder 11:07, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

m4r VS m4a

I was reading the part about how iPhone uses ringtones with an m4r extension, instead of an m4a extension. If you made an m4r file (in iTunes, for example), would this work with other phones that support using custom ringtones? Or would you have to change it to an m4a file, and if you do have to change it, can you just change the file name as described for changing audiobooks from m4a to m4b, or do you need a special converter program (if one were to exist)? Thanks for any help. 69.204.194.148 (talk) 14:02, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Status of "MP4" abbreviation

The term MP4 is not an official synonym of MPEG-4 or the standard file extension for MPEG-4 format files. By contrast "MP3" is the de facto standard file extension ".MP3" for MPEG-3 format files. Hence the more general use of the term "MP4 player" for all video players is not technically incorrect, although it risks people making the assumption that MPEG-4 format files will be supported directly.Elroch (talk) 12:43, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

different types

you have different types of mp4 file extensions such as .m4a,.m4b and so on. should not those also be included under file extension? SubaruSVX (talk) 02:13, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Playstation Portable XMB?

If the Playstation Portable XMB is part of the software that supports MPEG-4 file types, then why isn't the iPod and Zune softwware also incuded? Why is the Playstation Portable XMB on there in the first place? Eugeniu B (talk) 15:46, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

comparison between mp3 and mp4 audio files useless

In the comparision between an mp3 files (at 320Kbps) and an mp4 file (at 128 Kbps) is useless. First of all most people rip for 128 Kbps for either format anyway (in my experience) and the wast majority of commercially available mp3 files are no better than 128 Kbps. More importantly, comparing the size of two audio files compressed using different audio formats as well as different compression rates is completely useless as it says nothing about the differences between the two.

I can easily reduce the size of a 320Kbps mp3 file, by simply recoding it at a lower bitrate. If a file takes up 7 MiB at 320 Kbps, it should be reduced to about 3 MiB at 128 Kbps (It is quite normal for mp3 files containing standard 3 minute songs to be about this size at 128 Kbps). FrederikHertzum (talk) 20:00, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Add VC-1, fragmented MPEG-4?

I'm involved in these efforts, so didn't want to edit directly. But there's a couple newer things that Microsoft is doing with the MPEG-4 file format that perhaps should be mentioned here.

The new Smooth Streaming format uses either VC-1 and WMA or H.264 and AAC payload inside of a fragmented MPEG-4 file. Fragmented is supported mode in the Part 14 spec where there can be a 'moof' header periodically referencing just a small section of video, instead of having a single header for the entire file.

Also, as VC-1 is being used for this, and as there has long been a specification for VC-1 inside MPEG-4, it shoud probably be listed as a supported codec. There isn't a formal mapping for WMA.

Some references:

Fragmented MPEG-4 implementation details: [1]

List of overview links: [2]

Sample content in fMP4 using VC-1 and WMA: [3]


Ben Waggoner, March 21st, 2009 97.120.194.158 (talk) 23:01, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

I think your suggestion is about ISO base media file format and not about MP4 file format. It is very questionable, if every compression format registered by MP4 Registration authority will be supported by common MP4 players. In addition, WMA is not registered compression format. I think that in supported compression formats should be only those widely supported.--89.173.68.106 (talk) 08:35, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Tags

I am surprised that there is no description of the metadata tags for mp4 / m4a ... it seems that some of the mp3 tag editors can read the mp4 tags ... so they exist, but they are not described or defined in this article.

Also, for some reason, neither Windows XP nor Windows Vista "see" these tags. While it is possible in Windows Explorer (formerly File Manager) to display various file attributes such as "Title" "album" "Genre" and so on, these are always blank, even though various tag editors and media players display these tags.

This article needs expanding to describe the metadata tags and to note that for some unfathomable reason, Microsoft Windows is unable to read or edit these tags ... giving the false impression that there are no tags. Also, I am left wondering why Windows Explorer falsely indicates that there are either no tags (displays blanks). If Microsoft is unable to read these tags, the respective tag columns should be greyed-out. At least that way, the user has some indication that the data may exist, but cannot be viewed.

Enquire (talk) 06:38, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

M4V merged into MPEG-4 Part 14

It shouldnt happen

M4V is a completely different standard to MP4. It has different purposes and unlike MP4, M4V contains only H.264, AAC and AC-3. MP4 only holds MPEG-4, H.264 and AAC.

M4V is proprietary for Itunes whereas MP4 is an international standard —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.255.246 (talk) 13:37, 25 December 2009 (UTC)


I agree with 92.40.225.246, merging it causes confusion with MP4. It needs to remain at its own page. GEORGIEGIBBONS —Preceding undated comment added 19:46, 29 December 2009 (UTC).

m4v will stay —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.8.176.203 (talk) 20:49, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

This is not an encyclopedia article

This article, the way it is written, is way too complicated for an encyclopedia. The average person reading it will have no idea what it is talking about and will not be able to get anything useful from the article.

For example: "MPEG-4 Part 14 is an instance of more general ISO/IEC 14496-12:2004 (MPEG-4 Part 12: ISO base media file format) which is directly based upon Apple’s QuickTime container format.[2][3][4][5][6] MPEG-4 Part 14 is essentially identical to the MOV format, but formally specifies support for Initial Object Descriptors (IOD) and other MPEG features.[7] MPEG-4 Part 14 revises and completely replaces Clause 13 of ISO/IEC 14496-1 (MPEG-4 Part 1: Systems), in which the file format for MPEG-4 content was previously specified.[8]"

Now, what is the average person supposed to do with that information? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Franklinjefferson (talk • contribs) 14:23, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Removed irrelevant information regarding the reason for popularity of the M4A extension in the '.MP4 versus .M4A file extensions' section. Sony's PSP and Nintendo's DSi were not major contributors to the popularity of this extension, they are simply capable of playback - among thousands of other pieces of hardware which would be pointless to list. --118.93.7.60 (talk) 17:36, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Propose change of MP4 term redirect to MP4 player

I came to this page to find out about how the term MP4 is used, specifically by shops in the UK. The article does not try to address this (at present you have to go to MP4 disambiguation, and then to *Chinese* MP4 Players to find the explanation of its use in mainstream publications - the reference to MP4 players being chinese was just too much to let go and I have removed this as clearly the manufactures come from all countries). There are many examples in publications of MP4 being used to mean a category of video media player, here are three articles I found in a couple of minutes:

http://stuff.tv/Reviews/MP3-MP4-Reviews/

http://online.wsj.com/article/PR-CO-20101129-901145.html

http://www.t3.com/feature/top-10-mp4-players

I propose to alter MP4 to redirect to MP4 Player, and that this article covering the less well known .mp4 file extension (and also often referred to as h.264 files rather than .mp4 files) be listed on the mp4 disambiguation page (and a link to that from the MP4 player page). I know I am unlikely to get universal agreement on this but when it is use in popular publications is different to how it is treated by wikipedia I think change is needed. Fuzzything (talk) 14:35, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree that it is not clear that the file format is the dominant use of the term. I'm not convinced that MP4 should redirect to MP4 player. I support a compromise solution to rename the disambiguation page: MP4 (disambiguation) -> MP4. --Kvng (talk) 14:37, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

MP4 vs. MXF

Can someone in the know compare MP4 with MXF? I am particularly interested in the reasons that caused Sony to chose MP4 for its XDCAM EX camcorders (2008) whereas it used MXF in older models (from 2003). Mikus (talk) 03:18, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Phones

A section talking about which mobile phones support Mp4 format will be useful.Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 03:37, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Wrong abbreviations given

2 wrong abbreviation. One was about Lossless Apple lossles format (in mp4 vs m4a section) and other one toward the end. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vaibhav075 (talk • contribs) 18:31, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Advertisements

Please remove advertisements in references 2 and 3 if they are. Sky6t (talk) 16:30, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

DRM

"M4P is a protected format which employs DRM technology to restrict copying."

Please add a section to answer the following, since people who buy music should want to know what they are getting:

Is there any chance, for example if who you bought it from goes out of business and no longer offers their DRM'ed codecs or if the technology is abandoned long in the future in favor of the next big thing, that the music files you bought will stop working?

Is the DRM entirely on the analog form after decompression, as in giving everyone a slightly different sound that usually only machines can detect? Or does the DRM extend to blocking certain players? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.89.104.85 (talk) 20:02, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Miller, Vandome, and McBrewster

Sources written by Miller, Vandome, and McBrewster need to be double checked (and possibly deleted) as per VDM Publishing § Wikipedia content duplication. Ihaveacatonmydesk (talk) 20:44, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

typo

I think is not part 14, is part 12 of the ISO standard, I mean, is not ISO/IEC 14496-14, is ISO/IEC 14496-12, for example ISO/IEC 14496-12:2012

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Malware?

Are there any known .mp4 exploits that should be discussed? I have found only vague warnings about it, particularly because of it's "container" nature, but nothing concrete. If anyone has any knowledge about such things, it almost certainly deserves a section within here, or a link to a similar section within the mpeg page, no?Tgm1024 (talk) 14:48, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Is it really an open format?

I can't find a source for that. Is this about MP4 file format version 1? Released in 2001 so patents have expired. --Tuxayo (talk) 01:12, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

It is open (there's a public specification) but not free (license fees apply in some situations). I fixed that. --Fernando Trebien (talk) 20:29, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 16 August 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to MP4 file format. Consesus to move to MP4 file format. MP4 still be the primary topic of this article, thus be redirected accordingly. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 06:03, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

MPEG-4 Part 14 → MP4 – WP:COMMONNAME, already redirects here. I don't personally see why it should be titled as the technical name that nobody knows it by, unlike MP3. Lazz_R 14:39, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

  • Move to MP4 file format: See the second and third paragraphs of the article, which refer to it, correctly, as the "MP4 file format". The name I suggest would clarify that this article is about a file format, and it would avoid confusion with other MPEG-4 topics, such as MPEG-4 Audio and MPEG-4 Visual. There is some of that confusion here on the talk page, such as in the sections called #Compression Ratio and listening tests? and #Comparision with mp3. In contrast to MP3, this is not a particular way of compressing audio or video – it is a container file format that can contain things that are compressed in many different ways. Mulligatawny (talk) 23:35, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
  • Agreed that "MP4" is definitely more WP:RECOGNIZABLE than the current title, but Mulligatawny also raises a convincing point about "MP4 file format" incorporating the recognizable name without losing WP:PRECISION. Thus, my top choice is to move to MP4 file format, with a secondary preference for the move as first proposed. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 15:03, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
  • Comment – @Mulligatawny and ModernDayTrilobite: If we were to move the article to "MP4 file format", would you propose that the article remain the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for "MP4" and thus "MP4" would continue to redirect here? Graham (talk) 04:55, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
    I think that'd be the best call, yeah. I took a look at MP4 (disambiguation) and the file format seems very likely to be the primary topic. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 17:10, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

3GPP is based upon ISO/IEC 14496-12 not 14

3GPP as numeros docs that you can find in the 3gp website is based upon MPEG4/JPEG2000 Part 12 file format (also know as ISO media base file). MPEG-4 Part 14 is derivated from the Part 12 just like the 3GPP file format do. So I correct this line: "3G mobile phones use 3GP, a simplified version of MPEG-4 Part 14, with the .3gp and .3g2 extensions. These files also store non-MPEG-4 data (H.263, AMR, TX3G)." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.75.198.69 (talk • contribs) 14:29, June 9, 2006 (UTC)

AC3 in Nero Digital?!?! LOL

I'm the guy that made the changes to the 3GPP description. Nero Digital supports AC3 in MP4?!?! Don't make me laugh! It supports Vobsubs in MP4, it doesn't support AC3 at all. It supports also chapters, via UDTA, it doesn't use a private stream for it (while in the M4B is possible to place chapters with the text stream (that it's not a private stream, it's definited in the mp4 standards, at least Apple says so in their www.mp4ra.org website). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.75.198.69 (talk • contribs) 14:36, June 9, 2006 (UTC)

Podcasts/m4b

"Audiobook and podcast files, which also contain metadata including chapter markers, images, and hyperlinks, can use the extension .m4a, but more commonly use the .m4b extension."

I'm an avid podcast listener for over a decade. I have never encountered an .m4b file. Podcasts certainly don't "more commonly use the .m4b extension". 93.206.191.47 (talk) 02:21, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

MP4 and ISOBMFF are not open formats

according to Wikipedia's own page:
> An open file format is licensed with an open license
<https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_file_format>
following, we get:
> A free license or open license is a license which allows others to reuse another creator’s work as they wish. Without a special license, these uses are normally prohibited by copyright, patent or commercial license.
<https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_license>
continuing, we have this copyright notice:
> © All Rights Reserved
https://iso.org/standard/83102.html
and even the standard itself is clearly marked as well:
> © 2022 ISO/IEC — All rights reserved
https://iso.org/obp#iso:std:iso-iec:14496:-12

Svnpenn (talk) 19:38, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

for a further demonstration of the difference, here is some constrasting text from ACTUALLY open formats, ones covered by RFCs:
> All RFCs may be freely reproduced and translated (unmodified).
https://www.rfc-editor.org/faq/#copyright
the ISO standards in question explicitly forbid reproduction:
> All IEC Publications are protected by the publisher's copyright and no part of any IEC Publication can be reproduced or utilized in any form or by any means (graphic, electronic or mechanical including photocopying) without the written permission of the publisher (please see Copyright on IEC Standards in Database Format).
https://www.iec.ch/copyright Svnpenn (talk) 20:06, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
An open file format is licensed with an open license
The reference supporting this statement in Open file format is opendefinition.org/ofd/ which has two definitions for an open format, neither of which supports this statement explicitly (the first seems to suggest it, the second certainly does not). This statement was added in March 2022 by a new editor who is now inactive. Prior to that, the introduction of Open file format reflected the definition now further down in the article, which partially contradicts this:

According to The Linux Information Project, the term open format should refer to "any format that is published for anyone to read and study but which may or may not be encumbered by patents, copyrights or other restrictions on use" – as opposed to a free format which is not encumbered by any copyrights, patents, trademarks or other restrictions.

This definition is consistent with "open format for data - definition 2" at opendefinition.org/ofd/ and with the meaning of "open standard" used by the Library of Congress. The same article also contains the following:

In contrast to open file formats, closed file formats are considered trade secrets.

This is clearly not the case with MP4 and ISOBMFF.
Also, open license ≠ open format. MP4 and ISOBMFF are open and proprietary (not free) formats. These formats are also defined by open standards. See Open standard § Comparison of definitions in the "Availability / Free of charge" column. Open file format § Examples of open formats also lists formats described as open (royalty-free with a one-time fee on the standard).
What Free license is talking about is the license that applies to work distributed making use of a specific format, not the license of the standard itself, such as whether someone is allowed to create their own extensions and modifications to the standard. The article on Free license also does not distinguish between the ideas of free and open and its content is quite superficial on this subject.
As pointed out by VQuakr in Talk:MP4 file format § 3O and others at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 368 § Github as reliable source for software topics, GitHub discussions are a primary source of user-generated content which is generally unacceptable in Wikipedia per WP:USERGENERATED. These GitHub references and their interpretation of the terms open and free are not as reliable as the Library of Congress and should not be reintroduced into the article by anyone who knows and is really trying to follow Wikipedia's reliable source guidelines.
for a further demonstration of the difference, here is some constrasting text from ACTUALLY open formats, ones covered by RFCs
www.rfc-editor.org/faq/#copyright
Just because RFCs, some of which define formats, are available without a fee and are open standards, doesn't mean MP4 isn't an open format, it depends on the definition of "open format". --Fernando Trebien (talk) 23:57, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
> The reference supporting this statement in Open file format is opendefinition.org/ofd/ which has two definitions for an open format, neither of which supports this statement explicitly (the first seems to suggest it, the second certainly does not).
from the link:
> The Open Definition has three key requirements for a work to be open: an open license, open access, and an open format.
https://opendefinition.org/ofd/
since MP4 fails the requirement of an open license, it fails the definition of an open format.
> According to The Linux Information Project, the term open format should refer to "any format that is published for anyone to read and study but which may or may not be encumbered by patents, copyrights or other restrictions on use" – as opposed to a free format which is not encumbered by any copyrights, patents, trademarks or other restrictions.
right, so according to your own cited definition, MP4 is not an open format, because its not published for anyone to read, only those who can afford to pay for it.
> Also, open license ≠ open format.
no one is conflating the two. quoting myself again:
> An open file format is licensed with an open license
continuing:
> See Open standard § Comparison of definitions in the "Availability / Free of charge" column.
no one is arguing free of charge, its a paid item.
> As pointed out by VQuakr in Talk:MP4 file format § 3O and others at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 368 § Github as reliable source for software topics, GitHub discussions are a primary source of user-generated content which is generally unacceptable in Wikipedia per WP:USERGENERATED.
noted, I will use this link instead:
https://opendefinition.org/ofd/ Svnpenn (talk) 03:02, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
@Svnpenn: that link doesn't mention the MP4 format and therefore shouldn't be used to support a statement about the standard being open or closed per WP:SYNTH. The standard appears to be described as open at [4], doesn't it? VQuakr (talk) 03:58, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
what business does LOC have over determining what is and is not an open format? any labeling of formats as open by the LOC would seem to be an opinion at best Svnpenn (talk) 05:09, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
That's what we need to make the assessment, opinions and assessments of third parties. VQuakr (talk) 05:38, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
So far you have not provided any alternative sources other than a link to a specific organization's definition of "open." That's faulty generalization. opendefinition.org is maintained by the Open Knowledge Foundation whose definition of openness is The Open Definition. It doesn't appear to be that notable, as it isn't even mentioned in Open standard and it is only mentioned in Open file format in the now questioned reference. --Fernando Trebien (talk) 11:45, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
And as this reference does not mention the MP4 file format, it cannot be used to support that it is not an open format. But the Library of Congress supports that it is an open format. --Fernando Trebien (talk) 11:45, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
Ultimately, the discussion about definitions should continue in Talk:Open standard. Here, we should only discuss whether MP4 is open or not based on reliable references that explicitly connect MP4 with a status such as open, closed, or proprietary. --Fernando Trebien (talk) 14:08, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
And yet another problem with using opendefinition.org/ofd/ as reference is that it appears to be user-generated content based on its significant evolution and this GitHub thread. A better reference (on the "openness" of formats in general, not on the openness of MP4 in particular), also by Open Knowledge Foundation, would be opendatahandbook.org/glossary/en/terms/open-format/, which states that Often, but not necessarily, the structure of an open format is set out in agreed standards, overseen and published by a non-commercial expert body. Although ISO requires a fee to access the text of the MP4 standard, it is not a commercial organization in the traditional sense, it is not for profit and the fee only pays its operational costs. --Fernando Trebien (talk) 15:13, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
Another problem with using opendefinition.org/ofd/ as a reference is that its content is clearly indicated as a draft at the beginning, with text asking for help, whereas the Library of Congress source is a fully realized draft since 2012. --Fernando Trebien (talk) 14:51, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
I dont think tearing down https://opendefinition.org/ofd/ is a good use of anyone's time. regardless of its faults, its still referenced by Wikipedia in regards to this issue, as it should be, and its still a better source than LOC. the LOC is a government agency, not a technical one, and as such should not be relied upon as an arbiter in this discussion. Svnpenn (talk) 16:57, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
It is good use as opendefinition.org does not mention the MP4 format at all. For the sake of the discussion about the general concept, if only technical agencies are to be considered, then we should also consider the definition by the Open Source Initiative at opensource.org/osr that states that an open standard MUST be freely and publicly available (e.g., from a stable web site) under royalty-free terms at reasonable and non-discriminatory cost which is not the same thing as zero cost which is the definition you are pushing for. There is also OpenStand at open-stand.org, a joint definition by IEEE, ISOC, W3C, IETF and IAB, all technical agencies, which states that the terms of availability of an open standard may vary from royalty-free to fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatory terms (FRAND). We could continue nitpicking to support any particular view, going through the whole list at Open standard § Comparison of definitions, while the main point to be addressed here - whether the MP4 file format is open or not - continues to be incorrectly addressed using a reference that does not mention the MP4 file format at all. The reference that is currently in use is an obvious fictitious reference. --Fernando Trebien (talk) 18:55, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
> It is good use as opendefinition.org does not mention the MP4 format at all
classic "no true scotsman". this page:
ISO base media file format
links here:
Open file format
which in turn links here:
https://opendefinition.org/ofd/
so in this sense, the OFD page is important to the discussion, while the LOC page is an opinion of a non-techincal government agency at best. if a "better" page is available than the OFD, please find it and add it to the "open file format" Wiki page. tearing down OFD without presenting any viable alternatives is not constructive. Svnpenn (talk) 19:41, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
This content (claiming that "an open file format is licensed with an open license") and that reference (from opendefinition.org) which does not support that content were introduced in March 2022 by Avoinlähde, who was a new editor at the time and is now inactive. The previous version and its predecessors did not make that incorrect logical leap. The current version, and the earliest March 2022 version, and many previous versions have included some examples in Open file format § Examples of open formats that, just like MP4, were still considered open formats even when requiring a one-time fee. --Fernando Trebien (talk) 20:33, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
again, this entire comment and several previous seem intent on tearing down existing references without providing counter references. the ONLY counter reference provided that I can remember is the LOC link, which again is a non technical government agency. if you have more or better links, please provide them. otherwise this is not a constructive use of anyone's time Svnpenn (talk) 20:39, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
I mentioned Open standard § Comparison of definitions four times. This article has 73 references. --Fernando Trebien (talk) 20:51, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
OK, can you clarify how that link applies to this situation? it doesn't mention MP4 or even ISO/IEC. it mentions "free of charge", which is not part of the discussion here Svnpenn (talk) 20:58, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
I think whenever I mentioned this I made very clear the relationship between this and what was being discussed (the definition of the term "open" in the expression "open format"). You chose many times to ignore this link which shows how various organizations define it, then accused me of acting in bad faith, vandalizing and having an agenda, in an attempt to justify imposing your particular understanding of the concept. --Fernando Trebien (talk) 21:25, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
the table in question argues my own point, so thank you for bringing it to my attention. several organizations in the table mention FREE OF CHARGE as a requirement to an open standard
> then accused me of acting in bad faith, vandalizing and having an agenda
I would say making edits across several pages, including removing text and links NOT added by me, in order to strengthen your view, yes qualifies as bad faith, vandalizing and having an agenda. Svnpenn (talk) 22:34, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
Are you admitting you are not assuming good faith? --Fernando Trebien (talk) 00:44, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
This is a great example of why we avoid circular references and original synthesis. VQuakr (talk) 01:41, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
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