Talk:Karagöz and Hacivat

A fact from Karagöz and Hacivat appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 25 October 2007. The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Turkish shadow puppet characters Karagöz and Hacivat (pictured) are supposedly based on two laborers who were executed because their banter slowed down the construction of a mosque?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2007/October.

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Potentially useful source[edit]

I've taken this from a stub to a decent start on an article. If someone wants to expand this further, Emin Senyer's multilingual site http://www.karagoz.net looks like a very good source, which I've only very minimally exploited. - Jmabel | Talk 17:38, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Turkish[edit]

an Arab who knows no Turkish

Ottoman or Turkish? Mallerd 13:48, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The translation fault[edit]

The last link at the end of the page, the link to the movie page, is translated wrong. Turkish it's name is "Hacivat ve Karagöz Neden Öldürüldü?" which means "why were Hacivat and Karagöz killed?," not "who killed Hacivat and Karagöz".Not such a big thing, however. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.126.21.5 (talk) 19:47, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Far fetched paragraph with no source[edit]

Whether these stories have any truth or not, the roots of karagöz stretch back to the unlikeliest of places; the island of Java. Javanese wayang, literally meaning “shadow,” is a form of shadow puppetry that dates back to 930 CE. These ornate shadow puppets, easy to transport due to their flat shape, were brought to the Middle East by Arab merchants and were adopted by the Egyptians, who practiced the art sporadically and without much convention for a few centuries. In the year 1517, Egypt was conquered and absorbed into the Ottoman Empire. The last Mameluke ruler, Selim Tumanbay, was overthrown by Sultan Selim I and executed. Selim I later chanced upon an Egyptian shadow puppet performance that recounted the entire execution (even including the fact that the rope broke twice.) Selim I, impressed by the performance, repaid the talented puppeteer by awarding him with 80 gold pieces and ordering him to travel with the royal caravan to Istanbul, where he would repeat the performance for his son. This gesture meant that Egyptian shadow theatre was officially adopted as Turkish entertainment—shadow puppet players then entertained the Ottoman royal court for years afterward.

I'm removing this. --Mttll (talk) 14:59, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not Merge[edit]

It can not be merge, because Karagöz is Turkish original, Karagiozis is the Greek version... Buzancar (talk) 13:17, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Merge[edit]

Support - the proposed merge seems to be common sense, since the names are the same and both articles cite that the character is not restricted to any one country. Ithinkicahn (talk) 07:38, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The characters of Karagoz and Karagiozis are "the same" and that of Hacivat and Hadgiavatis. The rest of the stock characters in the repertoires of the Turkish and the Greek traditions are different.

Karagoz and Hacivat do not look at all like their Greek counterparts, Karagiozis and Hadjiavatis. Karagiozis has to have that distinctively long arm or he is not recognisable as Karagiozis. Similarly, Hadjiavatis must hold his beard. These are trademark features of the Greek puppets and very important indicators of a different heritage to that of Karagoz and Hacivat.

Karagoz and Hacivat were a permitted entertainment in the Ottoman Court. Greek traditions during the occupation went underground. This suggests that a pre-existing theatrical tradition was transformed into shadow puppetry to survive. Karagiozis humour is that of a satirist. Many of his jokes are at the expense of his Turkish overlords.

Instead of merging the two pages, the characteristics of their stock characters should be highlighted to demonstrate how different they are.

Another point of difference is that Karagoz and Hacivat shows were enjoyed in the Court. The influence of Plautus can be seen in the early scenarios. Karagiozis, however, is the ante hero of the people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crafty Theatre (talk • contribs) 02:26, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

Hacivat and Karagöz.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 10:07, 2 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]