Talk:Harry Sassounian

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Note[edit]

I am just wondering, will you start creating an article for each individuals? Fad (ix) 00:20, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not just each individual, but those who committed notorious crimes worthy of public attention and condemnation. This is not the only page I created, I also created pages for poets and musicians. Atabek 12:01, 23 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You just have shown again that you don't understand what Wikipedia is. "Worthy of public attention and condemnation" as reason is called POV pushing. Fad (ix) 19:57, 23 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Added a new category, where this topic fits. Atabek 11:19, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Replacing the category terrorism because it doesn't fit. He was never found guilty of terrorism. This is what he was found guilty of "murder in the first degree (Pen. Code, § 187), with a true finding of the special circumstance that the killing was because of the victim's nationality or country of origin. (Pen. Code, § 190.2, subd. (a)(16).) fn. 1" appropriate category would be anti-turkism VartanM 05:35, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Vartanm, before next POV pushing attempt, read the second reference, the words of President Ronald Reagan issued in the statement on the day of murder. Atabek 21:24, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Atabek, I'm not pushing POV, I have read all the sources included in this article. This is what Reagan said:
"This afternoon a tragic event occurred in Los Angeles. The Turkish Consul General, Kemal Arikan, was assassinated in an apparent act of terrorism. I condemn this vicious act."
Definition of the word:"apparent: appearing as such but not necessarily so" thus, considering all the sources provided, you can't include him in the terrorist category because, the statement by the president Reagan was doubtful. He was convicted as a murderer, not a terrorist. VartanM 23:53, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You're to tell us that the definition of the word "terrorism" with regards to this murder by President Ronald Reagan was wrong? Perhaps, you have trouble interpreting the word terrorism, here is the definition for you from Wikipedia Terrorism: "Terrorism is a term used to describe violence or the perception or threat of imminent violence." The murder was a violence, committed on basis of ideology of Turkophobia which the convicted murderer was brainwashed with. It was committed not as a standalone murder act, but was part of global ASALA terror campaign againt Turkish targets going in 1970s and 1980s. Your claim that it wasn't terrorist attack is the same as claiming Madrid train bombings were a mass murder but not a terrorist attack. Atabek 19:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Atabek, I'm not claiming anything, It is you who is claiming that he was a terrorist. I'm only asking for reliable proof. Which you haven't produced. VartanM 19:47, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My thinking was that if the president of the USA uses the term 'terrorism', it's at least a defensible proposition. What's more, a jury found that the killing was motivated by politics. In any case, I don't much want to talk about it; but if I didn't reinsert it at least once, I might question my own integrity.DBaba 00:00, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The president said it was an apparent act of terrorism, apparent shows doubt. And he was only convicted for a first degree murder not terrorism. VartanM 00:08, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"I renounce the use of terrorist tactics to achieve political goals." The NYT almost certainly termed it similarly. I don't know what to tell you, except that the vast majority of humans in the modern western world would call this terrorism, and have a much more compelling argument than you do. You can restore it, if his confession is enough for you; I trust that you're doing your best to discern the truth, rather than foolishly attempting to determine it.DBaba 00:59, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I also renounce the use of terrorist tactics to archive political goals. Does renouncing terrorism makes me a terrorist? My intention is to make sure that this articles content corresponds with its sources. And none of the sources have sufficient information to claim he was a terrorist. VartanM 01:17, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Vartan, the main reason why Harry Sassounian became a "celebrity" to have a dedicated Wikipedia page was due to his murder of Arikan, an event which was branded by no other than the President of the United States, Ronald Reagan as "an act of terrorism". So I don't see what kind of ground you have in removing the terrorism category from this page provided the facts above? Atabek 17:18, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Atabek, you are correct, the only reason his famous is because of the murder of Arikan. You know I'm really impressed by your selective quotation of the president of the US. I guess your eyes see what your mind wants them to see. There is an important part of that sentence you left out, by mistake I suppose. But don't worry I'm not blaming you, its just a small word,easy to miss. Do you know what that word is, yes you do we've been discussing it for over a month now. The word is apparent. Apparent means maybe yes, maybe not, who knows, I have no clue, it could of been, I'm not sure, I'm guessing it was, you get the point. You see Atabek Wikipedia is not the place to guess not even for the president of United States. VartanM 21:11, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article lists the statement by Sassounian in 2002, which says: "I renounce the use of terrorist tactics to achieve political goals. I regret the suffering of the Arikan family.". This is a clear admission that the murder of Arikan was a terrorist attack and shall be appropriately categorized. Atabek 21:54, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Atabek, please mind the WP:BLP, as said before, renouncing terrorism is not addmition of it. VartanM 22:07, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

VartanM, he did use terrorist tactics to achieve political goals, and he admitted it. As for your comment on edit, yes you renounce terrorism, perhaps, but you haven't been charged with murdering a human being via a terrorist attack, Sassounian was, so comparison is irrelevant here. This is a fourth revert you're making without proper discussion. Atabek 22:14, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What he asks is seems to be something different: "I renounce the use of terrorist tactics to achieve political goals." Is it means he is a ... terrorist? I think a lot of peaceful, non-terrorist persons can repeat these words... Andranikpasha 12:32, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hero[edit]

For the claim he is seen as a hero by the Dashnaks/ARF no source given, I've found it and added. (AYF and Armenian Revolutionary Federation support Sassounian as a “martyr”, a “hero”..) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chonanh (talk • contribs) 03:27, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Paul Krekorian[edit]

In two places in this entry, someone's trying to tie the California politician Paul Krekorian to this convicted criminal. The tie-in is a claim that Krekorian petitioned the U.S. federal government on behalf of Sassounian (who is in the custody of the State of California, not the federal government). The only evidence offered for the claim is two letters to the editor that make the same claim without adducing any evidence. If someone can link to an actual news story reporting on Krekorian's alleged intervention, then we can consider whether such an intervention would be worth mentioning in Sassounian's biography.--Arkunets (talk) 02:36, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Maxime Gauin[edit]

Every article he has written has done nothing but paint Armenia as an anti-Semitic country, writes nothing but positive things about Azerbaijan and Turkey. Here is one of his articles claiming Armenia is anti-Semitic. Baku to the future: Azerbaijan, not Armenia, is Israel's true ally Rima Varzhapetyan-Feller, the president of the Jewish community of Armenia, said about Guain "Maxime Gauin, who presents Armenia as an anti-Semitic country, himself publicly supports the ultra-right party of Turkey, the Nationalist Movement Party. Apart from its stated position supporting the denial of the Armenian Genocide, that party is known for propagating anti-Semitism and xenophobia. Yet, Gauin turns a blind eye to this.” Everything he writes tries to praise Azerbaijan and denigrate Armenia. I dont know how that is not bias. He doesnt even use any sources for his claims. Here he is denying the Armenian Genocide. The Turkish-Armenian dispute: Who has something to hide? He claims Armenians collaborated with the Nazis. Plus he is a a researcher at the Center for Eurasian Studies in Ankara as well as being a member of the Uluslararasi stratejik arastirmalar kurumu (USAK). He said "OK. I am not, and I have never been, a temporary intern in USAK—another error of the “report”. I am a full time researcher in this think-tank. That is true that I have for the moment no personal page on the Internet site of USAK, but it should change soon." [1] Ninetoyadome (talk) 02:57, 26 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://conflictantiquities.wordpress.com/2012/04/01/france-intelligence-turkish-state-nationalist-diaspora/. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)

Paroled in December 2016?[edit]

A Google search for Sassounian parole gives:

  • A few reliable sources talking about earlier, unsuccesful, attempts to get parole
  • A few possibly less reliable sources talking about how he was paroled in December 2016.

Given the attention that this got in reliable sources such at the LA Times, it seems odd that they should say nothing if he is now paroled. Maybe I am missing something though. Has anyone found a definitely reliable source saying that he has been paroled? Yaris678 (talk) 12:24, 29 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Taking out the trash[edit]

I. The diplomat's name is Arıkan, not Arikan

II. The assassin's official name is Harry, not Hampik

III. Grandmaster's unsubstantiated deletion of LA Times source that called Arıkan a denier of the Armenian Genocide. Both Sassounian and prosectors said so

IV. TC America and ANCA are not just cultural groups. They are pressure, lobbyist groups

V. Rearranging sentences to delete duplicated information is not POV. It's just cleaning up

VI. Western Armenian and "Armenian" are not separate languages. - 217.149.166.11 (talk) 22:15, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see that LA Times calls Arikan a denier. And what does that have to do with murder anyway? Sassounian's name is Hampig, according to sources. Your edits look like apologism for the murder, it is not in line with WP:NPOV. Grandmaster 19:32, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So you're accusing me of murder apologism? Again, his name is definitely not "Harry (Hampig)", it's either or. And judging from your edit history, you love to fight with others editors too. 217.149.166.11 (talk) 19:45, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Then, I know that as an Azerbaijani you take issue with the genocide, but Arikan's denial was the impetus for the killing. Without mentioning it you make it sound like Sassounian was mentally deranged and just wanted to murder Arikan without motivation. But the event was political, so the genocide DOES have something to do with it. Heavy POV from you ! 217.149.166.11 (talk) 19:53, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The court determined the reason for killing, it is in the article. And Sassonian's claims are also presented. We don't insert our personal opinions here, and the lede of the article must summarize the content neutrally. Grandmaster 19:56, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You added to the article the claim that: Prosecutors have attributed the assassination to Sassounian's revenge for the open denial. Where exactly does the article say that? Could you please provide a quote? From what I can see, prosecutors never said anything like that, it was a claim by the murderer himself. Grandmaster 10:15, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Can I see the quote about California government? Could not find in in the reference. And also, how relevant is their opinion anyway? They are not a court or law enforcement. Grandmaster 21:03, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Grandmaster, see my latest edit summary pls. 217.149.166.11 (talk) 09:35, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Merger proposal[edit]

I propose merging Kemal Arıkan into Harry Sassounian. The content on Arıkan's page is identical to the one on here and can easily be explained in the context of Sassounian alone.217.149.166.11 (talk) 03:55, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

These are two distinct persons. Arikan had a career as a diplomat before being murdered. It is better to keep the articles separate. Grandmaster 15:22, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Grandmaster, Arikan had and has no significance besides being assassinated. This is not Harvey Lee Oswald! Also, i would like to have the opinion of others besides someone who accused me of cheating Wikipedia --217.149.166.11 (talk) 09:23, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Let's just give every Turkish diplomat their own page, no ? --217.149.166.11 (talk) 09:24, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If he was murdered by terrorists, then they do deserve their own page. But this person was a prominent diplomat, so he certainly deserves a dedicated article. Grandmaster 11:12, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Give me one source of Arikan's "prominence" before being killed, Grandmaster. Kemal Arikan's only noteworthy accomplishment is his death at the hands of "terrorists". And that can easily be explained in the context of Sassounian. And I really want other editors involved too, particularly those who edited here: @Armatura: @Achemish:--217.149.166.11 (talk) 13:36, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Merger would make sense. Both the assassin and the victim are essentially known for in the context of the murder, none of them is otherwise WP:NOTABLE, hence I would put the assassination (currently replicated in both articles) in the title and have sections on short bios of the assessin and the victim. --Armatura (talk) 14:50, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Both articles should be merged into Assassination of Kemal Arıkan. The event is notable. Neither figure is independently notable outside of this event. See WP:ONEEVENT. AlexEng(TALK) 02:32, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Good, I fully agree. Thank you for the enlightment--217.149.166.11 (talk) 03:45, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with merger, per notability reasons. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 13:49, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that a new article Assassination of Kemal Arıkan should be created. Both articles could be merged into that one. Grandmaster 20:19, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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