Talk:Doug Hoffer

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Doug Hoffer bio[edit]

I'm not sure who created this page but I offer the following suggestions. As the subject of the article, I am the best source. Drhoffer (talk) 12:05, 11 November 2012 (UTC) Doug Hoffer[reply]

Education: B.A., Williams College and J.D., SUNY Buffalo Law School

Career: Hoffer came to Vermont in 1988 to work for the City of Burlington in the Community & Economic Development Office. [Note: I was not the Director as stated in the original article.] He left City Hall in 1993, and has been a self-employed policy analyst ever since.

His clients have included the Vermont State Auditor, for whom he worked under contract for five years (1995 - 2000); Vermont State Treasurer; Peace & Justice Center, for whom he wrote The Job Gap Study, a multi-phase series dealing with the livable wage and economic development policy; Vermont Sustainable Jobs Fund; Public Assets Institute; Vermont State Employees Association; Burlington Electric Department; Ben & Jerry's; Yellow Wood Associates; and Good Jobs First, among others.

Hoffer was appointed by the mayor and city council to serve on the Burlington Electric Commission for six years (1994 - 2000), including five years as chairman.

Personal: Hoffer was born in New Rochelle, NY in 1951 and was raised in Norwalk, CT.

Sources: Work for the Vermont State Auditor http://www.vermonttreasurer.gov/sites/treasurer/files/pdf/misc/econTargetInvestReport20040216.pdf

Work for the Peace & Justice Center (The Job Gap Study) http://www.vtlivablewage.org/jobgapstudy.html#Vermont%20Job%20Gap%20Study

Work for the Vermont Sustainable Jobs Fund (Farm to Plate) http://www.vsjf.org/project-details/5/farm-to-plate-strategic-plan

Work for the Public Assets Institute http://publicassets.org/publications/reports/the-state-of-working-vermont-2008/ http://publicassets.org/publications/reports/some-necessities-cost-more-others-dont/ http://publicassets.org/projects/project-archives/cfed/

Work for the Burlington Electric Department (Performance Measures Report) https://www.burlingtonelectric.com/ELBO/assets/About%20BED/final%20with%20cover.pdf

Work for Yellow Wood Associates http://www.yellowwood.org/MeasuringCommunityWealth.pdf

secondary sources...[edit]

Naraht (talk) 19:41, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

question about process[edit]

Mr. McKern - I learned from John DosSantos (friend and former employee) that you have repeatedly deleted material he posted on the site. He added those materials at my request, after I obtained the required documentation. It appears from your comments that you made an editorial decision about what content is acceptable. I'm puzzled as to why you would think it was OK to effectively take control of the site and unilaterally (and arbitrarily) decide what can be posted.

The material in question was posted in the "Personal" section, which seems perfectly reasonable. Having pitched a no-hitter as a kid and won my golf club's championship as an adult are achievements that I'm proud of and wish to share (they're also fun memories). I am at a loss as to why you think they are not appropriate. If there are Wiki rules about such matters, please share them with me. If not, I would be grateful if you could put that material back on the page and remove any sanctions against John as he was simply acting on my behalf.

Thank you Doug Hoffer 2601:19B:C400:C580:1465:A8BA:24DE:84AC (talk) 11:55, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If you are Vermont State Auditor Hoffer, you should establish an account and confirm your identity with Wikipedia by following the instructions at WP:REALNAME(in short, you send an email to the address listed. If you have an official State of Vermont-issued email account, that should suffice). If you have designated someone to represent you here, they will need to declare their conflict of interest and/or paid editing status.
Please understand that any Wikipedia article should summarize only what independent reliable sources state about the subject, not what the subject wants to say about themselves. (that's what social media is for.) If there are changes you or your representative feel are needed to the article about you, you should bring them up on this page as formal edit requests so independent editors can evaluate the information. 331dot (talk) 15:21, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

response to 331dot[edit]

First, I am the Vermont State Auditor and sent the e-mail you recommended. Second, you said "that any Wikipedia article should summarize only what independent reliable sources state about the subject, not what the subject wants to say about themselves. (that's what social media is for.)"

I agree that facts supported by evidence is the foundation of Wikipedia. But the materials you deleted were supported by "independent reliable sources." Moreover, your admonition about limitations to articles is contradicted by some examples I found this morning. They show similar types of information deemed acceptable by other Wikipedia editors. One is left wondering why those are OK, but my no-hitter and golf club championship are deemed unacceptable by you.

I ask again that you repost the materials you deleted.

Thank you, Doug Hoffer Drhoffer (talk) 14:17, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Howard Dean (former Vermont Governor) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Dean

Early life and education There the boys– Howard, Charlie, Jim and Bill– "rode bikes, played with a model train set, [and] built elaborate underground forts."

Comment: Riding bikes is deemed acceptable, but not a no-hitter or club championship.

Dick Snelling (former Vermont Governor) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_A._Snelling

Early life Snelling was a member of…the school's track, swimming, and wrestling teams…While at Lehigh, Snelling played football and was a member of the wrestling team.[3] While at Harvard, Snelling…played on the varsity football team.[3]

Comment: College sports are OK, but not my no-hitter or club championship. Double standard?

Phil Hoff (former Vermont Governor) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_H._Hoff

Life and career Philip was a star high school football player, scoring the winning touchdown in Turners Falls High School's 1942 annual game against rival Greenfield High School.[2]

Comment: A High School touchdown is OK, but not the no-hitter or club championship.

Robert Stafford (former Vermont Governor) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Stafford

Early life Stafford graduated from Middlebury College in 1935. While there, he joined the Delta Upsilon fraternity.

Comment: While joining a fraternity is of interest to some, it is not an achievement comparable to pitching a no-hitter or winning a club championship. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drhoffer (talk • contribs)

  • Drhoffer Thank you very much for doing as requested. As an administrator, I am not taking a side on the inclusion of this information. On Wikipedia, decisions are made by consensus of the Wikipedia community. I can say that other similar information existing is not necessarily a reason to include it here too(it could be that it needs to be removed from those articles too); as this is a volunteer project where people do what they can when they can, it is possible for inappropriate edits to go undetected and unaddressed by the community, as we can only act on what we know about. As you have posted here, other editors that follow this article will see this discussion and weigh in(perhaps Billmckern will). If you wish to detail exactly what changes you feel are needed, you may make a formal edit request for those changes to be made. If you would rather not spend time learning the specifics of making such a request(which I could completely understand), I would be willing to formalize it for you so it gets its due attention. 331dot (talk) 14:29, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@331dot: I see two allegedly separate Wikipedia users, @Drhoffer: and @Johnnydos7:. One of them, Drhoffer, is supposedly the subject of the article, and has no activity on Wikipedia. The other, Johnnydos7, is a brand new user who has made edits to only one article - the one on Hoffer.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm still suspicious about what's going on here. But I can see which way this discussion is going. If you think this content is fine and you want to make it encyclopedic so it can be included in the article, I guess that's up to you.
Billmckern (talk) 15:01, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Billmckern It isn't up to me, and I'm not taking a side here. A consensus needs to be reached. 331dot (talk) 15:10, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@331dot and Billmckern: User:Drhoffer is OTRS verified as Doug Hoffer. [1] ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 15:27, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

First, to the unidentified administrator: Thanks for your note. I agree in theory with your comment about the possibility that the type of information found in the examples I presented may themselves be inappropriate and worthy of deletion. But the information at issue is innocent and commonplace and serves only to provide a little lighthearted context in the otherwise serious business of a person's life. Other than Mr. McKern, I doubt that you could find many (any?) folks who think it's objectionable for a biographical page to mention a person's varisty sports experience or an important high school touchdown or a Little League no-hitter. Now if someone posted (mis)information about the career of a political figure in an effort to rewrite history, I would expect you hard working Wiki folks would call that out - and rightly so. But that's not what's happening here.

Mr. McKern is seeking consensus, but to date he is the only person who has objected to the information posted on the page. As for his suspicions, you all now know that I am who I claimed to be. Someone unknown to me created the page a few years ago. When I came across it, I noticed factual errors and asked a friend with technical skills to help. As an elected official, I think you can understand my desire to ensure a fair and accurate representation of me and my life. Over time, the changes made to the page were all supported by evidence (BTW - I get the need for evidence; I'm the State Auditor after all). While visiting Conn. last Fall I spent two hours at the offices of the local paper seeking the article about the no-hitter. I got lucky and found it with the help of a really nice librarian. Given the Wiki community's acceptance of this type of innocent information on the pages of other elected officials, I would like nothing more than to be treated as they have been.

So can Mr. McKern repost the deleted material or allow it to be reposted? Thank you, Doug Hoffer Drhoffer (talk) 16:35, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mr. Hoffer, thank you for being willing to work within the system(so to speak) here. Many in your position don't do so. Billmckern, for what reason do you feel the information should not be included? If Donald Trump threw a No-hitter in little league(a significant and rare baseball achievement at any level), it would be in the article about him. How is this different from that, as well as the examples Mr. Hoffer has provided? It is sourced to an independent source that was obtained with what seems to be significant effort. Again, I am not siding with anyone here; Mr. Hoffer has made his case, now you can make yours.
I would say that the golf club championship win would need a source other than the club itself. 331dot (talk) 17:00, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not going to edit this article again. If someone else intends to re-add the material under discussion, I think at the very minimum it should be re-written to be encyclopedic, not conversational. And it should have good references, as 331 dot has indicated.
Billmckern (talk) 17:05, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've rewritten the sentence that was disputed to be more neutral; as noted, the golf championship will need a different source. If there is one, please offer it on this page. 331dot (talk) 17:17, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Administrator: Thanks again for weighing in.

Mr. McKern: You're hard to please. When I moved to VT in 1988, the local media regularly covered all the area golf club championships. Unfortunately, journalism has suffered since then, and the resources devoted to such things have all but disappeared. The website in question is a private business (Williston Golf Club - http://www.willistongolfclub.com/-membership-info(2)) and I have no control over it. The site includes quotes by numerous members so it's not as though they just decided to do me a favor.

Bottom line: To my knowledge, there is no other source. I could ask the owner to send an e-mail, but what is to stop you from questioning his veracity? This feels like a game I can't win.

I'm an elected official. If I had not won the club championship that year and claimed I did, the actual winner could call me out. Why would I risk exposure as a liar for something like this? Can't we just call it a day and let me post the darned thing with the available documentation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drhoffer (talk • contribs) 20:02, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I believe what you(and the club) say completely, but my beliefs are not relevant. An important principle of Wikipedia is verifiability. It needs to be possible for readers to verify any information they find in a Wikipedia article. For example, readers who read about your no-hitter could, if they really wanted to, do what you and your friend did and go and look up the newspaper report of your no-hitter. That makes that information fine. I don't think you or the club has the time to sit by a phone for as long as Wikipedia exists taking calls from readers potentially from all over the world. Even if you were, Wikipedia prefers publicly available independent reliable sources as sources. It isn't just you, this is the case with every Wikipedia article about a living person. Wikipedia has a policy about how living people are written about, and that policy requires that all information in such articles be well sourced.
You and the club are free to use your own social media accounts, websites like the club website, campaign website, your biography on a state website,(as my Maine State Auditor has) to tell about your championship win. Wikipedia is only interested in what independent sources state about article subjects(in this case, like yourself). 331dot (talk) 20:28, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Change to politician bio template[edit]

Previous version stated Hoffer was 30th Vermont State Auditor, but the supporting link Vermont Auditor of Accounts#cite ref-2 shows that an earlier Auditor (Alex Hutchinson) appears in the sequence twice, having served for two non-sequential periods (ref. line nos. 4 and 6). Hoffer is therefore the 29th person to serve as Vermont State Auditor, per edit. Deehahn (talk) 23:22, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Deehahn How is the counting done in Vermont? Grover Cleveland is the 22nd and 24th POTUS. Mr. Hoffer might still be considered the 30th. 331dot (talk) 23:32, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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