Talk:Delhi/Archive 9

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 5 ← Archive 7 Archive 8 Archive 9

Infobox Implementation

After careful consideration of the RFC consensus, the Infobox Indian state or territory was implemented on this page following standard and systematic procedures. However, a recent edit by an editor ( @Fowler&fowler ) resulted in the reversion to the previous version. The editor claims that Delhi is solely a city and not a union territory, but the fact remains that Delhi is both a union territory and a city. Therefore, it is reasonable to use an Infobox that accurately reflects the administrative type of the region without disregarding any parameters or information related to its "city" designation.

There are only parameters related to megacity and metro population, and perhaps a few (1-2) established history parameters that are not available in the new Infobox. Apart from this, everything remains the same, and nothing will be altered. In fact, the new Infobox is even better and capable of providing information more clearly and consistently.

Additionally, the editor asserts that the RFC was not properly announced, which is incorrect. In reality, the RFC was announced across various relevant wiki projects and numerous talk pages. Hence, it was not an "unannounced RFC."

Wikiprojects and talk pages which were informed about the RFC:


... And many other pages.

Regarding the RFC itself, it was evident that a WP:SNOW decision was reached, as indicated on the closer request page. The overwhelming majority of comments (not just three) expressed agreement with the proposal.

The editor mentions that altering an infobox format that has been in place for an extended period is not a valid reason. However, it is important to note that pages can still be updated as necessary, and changes can occur over time, as outlined in WP:WIP. The editor states their status as the primary author of the page, but this does not imply ownership, as per WP:OWN. It is not feasible to inform every individual involved in the development or creation of an article. As mentioned earlier, the RFC was announced on all related talk pages. The editor's lack of awareness regarding the RFC does not invalidate the broader community consensus.

Therefore, I strongly advocate for the re-implementation of the Infobox version, emphasizing the importance of respecting the consensus reached through formal processes and the wider community. Prarambh20 (talk) 21:34, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

You mangled an article which took a long time to write. You removed pictures the consensus for which took many months to form. Delhi is an old city, a mostly Muslim city founded ca 1300 CE. It was the capital of three major empires, the Delhi Sultanate, the Mughal Empire, and the British Raj (from 1911 onward), not to mention the Republic of India. What is a "union territory" of recent vintage in comparison? By forcing a consensus achieved by three lukewarm votes in a mysterious, faraway, place, delivered by people who very likely did not have full information, you have done nothing but assert out-of-context form over content.
At the very least you need to add to the new template every feature that was available in the old, so that nothing is removed by this change. I thought I'd seen it all on WP. You live and learn. Copying some wiser minds and cooler heads @Abecedare, RegentsPark, Johnbod, Johnuniq, Vanamonde93, El C, Kautilya3, UnpetitproleX, DaxServer, Arjayay, and Fylindfotberserk: Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:22, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
It is not like we don't mention union territory. But the version to which the infobox had been changed had: New Delhi is the capital of Delhi and Delhi is the largest city of Delhi. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:38, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
Also pinging those who took part in the RfC: @SMcCandlish, Chipmunkdavis, Tojoroy20, Peter Southwood, and Uanfala: I can't speak to the other states, but in the instance of Delhi, the entire state/territory is the city. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:53, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
Firstly, I did not remove any pictures. Please refer to my revisions. If any other editors have removed or changed those pictures, it is not my fault to blame. Secondly, as I mentioned earlier, this RFC is not 'mysterious' or 'faraway' in any manner. Merely repeating something does not make it right. Prarambh20 (talk) 04:56, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
  • Setting aside for a moment the fact that the RfC was very poorly attended; the question participants examined was really about adding relevant information that may be specific to Indian states and territories, and not about replacing an image gallery with a drab map. If you want to remove image galleries in the name of uniformity, then you need a much better attended discussion (and I can already tell you what its result will be). Furthermore, the other articles this infobox is used it are administrative entities created after 1947. Regardless of the administrative status of Delhi today, the article as it stands covers a far longer history, and it's entirely reasonable to argue that it is therefore out of scope for the RfC cited above. For both reasons, I suggest that anyone seeking to replace infobox content needs to establish a specific consensus for that here. Vanamonde (Talk) 23:55, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
    And not about replacing an image gallery with a drab map. - A lengthy discussion and another RfC have already taken place regarding the images, resulting in a decision to keep them. Therefore, revisiting the image issue doesn't seem logical. Moreover, the replacement I made includes all of the images. During the RfC, all relevant Wikiprojects were notified, and if some editors chose not to participate, it does not diminish the value of the RfC in any way. Prarambh20 (talk) 05:02, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
    The replacement version I see does not include images; if you are now referring to a different version that you would like to see implemented, please make that clear. Vanamonde (Talk) 04:30, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
    The replacement version you referred was not implemented by me, I edited this one h
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Delhi&oldid=1146762409 , which includes Images. Prarambh20 (talk) 07:36, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
  • For comparison: Infobox 1, Infobox 2.
    This appears to be a classic case of the inflexibility of infoboxes coming up against the fluidities of the real world. Delhi is both a living city and a formal administrative entity, and each infobox prioritises one of those aspects. That seems a matter of editorial judgement rather than a question with a correct answer, so my view would be that the best option is the most informative one to the casual reader. On that, while I question aspects of both infoboxes, I think most readers would come to this page wanting to learn about the city and so an infobox which covers that seems more apt. CMD (talk) 02:45, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
    The Infobox2 version should be this, not the mentioned one.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Delhi&oldid=1146762409 Prarambh20 (talk) 09:37, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
    Updated, thanks. CMD (talk) 02:02, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
  • Am I right in thinking that the issue concerns the proposed infobox in permalink (Pamelathequeen 19 May 2023) compared with the established infobox in permalink (Fowler&fowler 27 May 2023)? The RfC was pretty vague with few details on what differences would apply to a major article such as this. The question should be settled for this article, namely which infobox is more appropriate. That should be based on which provides more useful information for readers rather than an opinion that all articles with a certain label should have the same infobox. Unfortunately, another RfC might be needed for this specific case. Before that happened, there should be a discussion about the actual differences. I think CMD has answered my question but it would be desirable if participants were to agree on that. Johnuniq (talk) 05:22, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
    And, can either of the infoboxes be presented in a really minimal form, like a full city infobox followed by a territory box that only has non-redundant parameters (or the opposite order, a full territory box and a minimalised city box)? I agree with the general thrust above that the understood intent of the original RfC was to add i-box information, not reduce it. PS: Are the city and the territory co-terminous? If they are (like the city and county of San Francisco) then oh well. But if they're not, they should probably be two separate articles.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:43, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
    In India, the terms "city" and "union territory" have specific meanings and are not always synonymous. According to the 2011 census, a settlement is referred to as a city only if it is classified as an urban area and has a population of one lakh or more, which is equivalent to 100,000 or above.
    On the other hand, a Union territory in India is a political administrative division that functions similarly to a state but lacks a legislative assembly. They serve as direct representatives of the central government and have jurisdiction over specific territories. Union territories are generally smaller in size compared to states. while most union territories do not have a legislative assembly, there are exceptions. Delhi, for instance, is a unique case where it is classified as a union territory but has a legislative assembly. The National Capital Territory of Delhi has its own elected government and Chief Minister, allowing for a degree of self-governance within the framework of a union territory.
    In short, a city in India is a settlement with a population of 100,000 or more and is characterized by urban, while a union territory is a political administrative division with or without a legislative assembly, depending on the specific circumstances. Prarambh20 (talk) 10:13, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
    The original implemented version was this one, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Delhi&oldid=1146762409 Prarambh20 (talk) 09:39, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
I'd agree with this statement "At the very least you need to add to the new template every feature that was available in the old, so that nothing is removed by this change". The chage of templates should not interfere with the stable version of the infobox and lead, layout, images, et al. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 09:52, 28 May 202
The new Infobox differs from the current one in a few parameters (approximately 4-5), but these changes do not impact the lead, layout, or images in any way. It is important to carefully review both versions to understand the specific differences. These 4-5 parameters mainly pertain to city-related information rather than state or union territory details. Therefore, including these additional parameters that are not directly related to the primary purpose of the Infobox may not be the most appropriate approach. Prarambh20 (talk) 10:10, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
@Prarambh20: Pardon me for using "Your infobox" and "My infobox." "New" and "Old" can be confusing.
Of course the infoboxes differ, and quite a bit. Your infobox has an outsize but entirely unlabeled map of every inch of India and every twist and turn of India's other states, not to mention a few of Pakistan-administered Kashmir. Delhi appears as a point, famously of no dimension after Euclid's first axiom. (Contrast with my infobox which not only has labels but also allows you to zoom in or out. )
Before a reader gets to that, however, their visual field in your infobox is suffused by a dead ringer for the Emblem of India appearing also as the emblem of Delhi. (It matters little that I was slaving over Lion capital of Ashoka last year, on which the Emblem of India is modeled.) Does a new reader needs these vacuous manifestations of nationalism, both more about India than Delhi? Contrast that with the realistic interactive map in my infobox?
Your infobox has nothing about the empires, dominions, and republics of which Delhi was the capital: the Delhi sultanate, Mughal Empire, British Raj, Dominion of India, and Republic of India. Review your infobox and mine
Your infobox has three very perplexing bullets:
  • New Delhi is the capital of Delhi. Which is odd for we know that the legislature of Delhi does not meet in New Delhi. Its building is in Old Delhi. See here).
  • Delhi is the largest city of Delhi. That suggests there is nothing in the Union Territory that is not in the City (extent-wise)
  • The largest metro of Delhi is the much bigger National Capital Region (India). ("It encompasses Delhi and several districts surrounding it from the states of Haryana, Uttar Pradesh and Rajasthan.")
I could add more, but I think you need to address these issues first.
Copying also @Vanamonde93, Johnuniq, SMcCandlish, and Fylindfotberserk: Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:16, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
Also copying @Chipmunkdavis: Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:18, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
I assume you are forcefully trying to make your point and, for some reason, attempting to present me as the one who is "wrong" here. The difference between the two versions of the Infoboxes is just 4-5 parameters. Now, the question should be: Does the absence of these few parameters result in not using the new Infobox version? Cheers - Prarambh20 (talk) 14:04, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
These are not faults or issues of an Infobox, but rather of an editor (me) who implemented the Infobox on the page. An editor's misunderstanding cannot be considered an issue with the Infobox. Any editor is free to be bold and make necessary changes after the implementation (if needed). Also, I do not own the Infobox or the implemented version. If the implemented version of the Infobox by me has some issues, you may consider correcting them instead of completely reverting the edit based on assumptions of what should or shouldn't be done. I don't think that's how editors work with mutual understanding on Wikipedia. None of us can achieve anything by criticizing me with comments and pointing out every this and that. Prarambh20 (talk) 13:48, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
(Uncalled for remark by me, which I have removed. Apologies to @Prarambh20: and thanks to @Chipmunkdavis: for drawing attention to this. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:44, 29 May 2023 (UTC)) I have interpreted the consensus of opinion here to be against your unilateral imposition position. You will need to garner a special consensus on this page for changing the infobox to state and union territory. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:03, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
I agree with Prarambh20 Infobox 2 is better neat choice. Delhi is administrative union territory and has been for last 75 and so years defined by its borders and status as capital territory recognised internationally. Infobox 1 seems like more a settlement based– Had Delhi been just another ordinary city in usual state I would have agreed with this but it is not and this infobox seems like more of a "historical city" settlement. Infobox 2 is the way to go as per standards of a federal territory.JayB91 (talk) 01:53, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
@JayB91: Delhi is much older than what it became 67 years ago in 1956, i.e. a union territory. From 1912 to 1947, it had been a chief commissionership under the Viceroy in New Delhi. In 1946, during the Interim government of India, the prime minister Jawaharlal Nehru's home minister Vallabhbhai Patel, ever the surreptitious Hindu nationalist, took direct control of Delhi and one of his first acts was to thin out the Britons, Anglo-Indians, and Muslims in the police ranks, and to fatten up the Hindu and Sikh ranks. From 1947 to 1956, Delhi was a part C State, becoming a Union Territory in 1956. (See, for example, Rotem Geva's excellent Delhi reborn, Stanford University Press, 2022.)
Historically, Delhi had been the capital of the Delhi Sultanate from 1299 CE. It was the capital of the Mughal Empire from 1526 CE with intermittent abscences to Agra. During the twilight of the Mughals, it became a Residency. See the article, List of British residents or political agents in Delhi, 1803–57, which my fading memory seems to recall was written after a query by @RegentsPark:. See also Samuel Ludlow (surgeon) another misadventure of my youth. Ludlow was the Residency surgeon from 1813 to 1831. From 1836 to 1858, Delhi Territory was a part of North-Western Provinces. After the Indian rebellion of 1857, Delhi became a district within the Punjab Province with a Chief Commissioner. (See, for example, the article Ludlow Castle, Delhi, in particular its section "After the Rebellion" when Ulysses Grant, the US president after Lincoln, visited Delhi in retirement as a guest of the Chief Commissioner.)
In other words, in Delhi's long history, the union territory is mostly a continuation of the British Chief Commissionership and a minor footnote or appendix. You may view that in the Google ngram with a wildcard "Delhi,union territory * Delhi,union territory": plain old Delhi occurs some 6000 times more often than UT of Delhi Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:30, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
Delhi has long history but every place on earth has long history since dawn of civilization. This article is about modern NCT territory of Delhi which it has been for decades as a special Union Territory and the article and it's infobox should reflect so. The long good and bad history is already present in history section and it belongs there– no point history of a settlement to dictate the modern article about an Union Territory of India that is internationally recognized. So my consensus is with Prarambh20 that this Infobox is better neat choice. Regards.–JayB91 (talk) 18:38, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
You need to tell us what makes Delhi a union territory. The article says precious little about Union Territory, other than naming it in the lead. What then is the difference between Delhi the pre-1956 city and Delhi the union territory? Also, you need to ensure that the new infobox has all the features that the old one did. A new infobox cannot remove information. If all the features of the old infobox are present (and a few of the Union Territory are added) I don't really care what it is called, Union territory, Federal territory, Centrally administered territory, etc. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:50, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
And making sure that the new infobox has all the features of the old is not my job, it is the job of the person who changes the infobox. Altering infoboxes requires a knowledge of their syntax. It is not the same thing as adding a comma here or removing a period there which all of use can do. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:53, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
Since everyone here is a volunteer, technically it is not anyone's specific "job." If you notice any parameters containing incorrect data, you can simply correct or remove the specific information instead of reverting the entire Infobox version. That's what I meant earlier, nothing more. However, if you prefer not to do that, it's fine. It can also be done or corrected by any other willing editor. Prarambh20 (talk) 20:27, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
Additionally, please refrain from being mean to others. I understand the importance of assuming good faith, but it seemed a bit harsh. Thank you very much. Prarambh20 (talk) 20:30, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
Using the Infobox Indian state or territory does not imply a lack of acknowledgment of the long history of Delhi as a settlement. Rather, it aims to provide all the necessary demographic, political, and economic information about the current administrative status of Delhi. The proposed version does not result in the loss of any (UT related) information, except for parameters such as "Capital, Delhi sultanate" and "Mughal Empire" that are related to previous historical periods. However, these can be included in the "Before was" parameter, specifying the previous status of Delhi, or by adding new parameters specifically for Delhi in the Template.
Ultimately, it is not possible to ensure that every little detail from the previous version remains unchanged. There may be some minor differences, but this is not intended to be a "drop-in" replacement. The new Infobox was designed to cater to the specific needs of a state or union territory, and this version is capable of fulfilling those requirements. Prarambh20 (talk) 20:26, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
Like I said, the onus is on you or someone else to first fix the new infobox so that no information in Delhi's old infobox is lost. Once that is done, you may call the infobox whatever you want: union territory, federal territory, province, state, city-state, 20th century janapada, centrally administered city-state. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:16, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Delhi/Archive_9&oldid=1212973830"