Talk:Chechil

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POV pushing[edit]

SonofJacob, please do not use a translation app as a source, because it is not reliable. The cooking blog websites you cited are not reliable sources either. You need to provide a reliable source proving "there's nothing Armenian about Chechili" when there is an Oxford source stating otherwise. --Steverci (talk) 17:37, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

as I've said, the translations is very much reliable and, as you can see the cheese Tenili (which is of Georgian origin obviously) and the cheese of Chechili are basically Kartvelian-structured words. everyone can know this when taking a look at it. also quick addition, look up "scutched" in google and then look up "chechili" in google. you'll see 100% similarity of the shapes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SonofJacob (talk • contribs)

I have just googled "scutch" and can find nothing about shapes but lots about separating fibres and beating flax.Spinney Hill (talk) 12:42, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Seems like there is already a discussion and none of the concerns were addressed regarding reliableness of recently introduced content. Before edit warring again [1], [2], one should first adequately address the points brought up on talk. Stable version was restored. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 21:08, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

>I have just googled "scutch" and can find nothing about shapes but lots about separating fibres and beating flax.

No. I told you to look up the word "scutched" not "scutch" because they differ a lot. Chechili has nothing to do with "scutch" but the shape and a form of it is 100% similar when you look up "scutched" in google. I would LOVE to export some pictures here, but they must not be a "copyright". If I import 2 images from Google will I be in trouble? SonofJacob (talk) 14:29, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also, sources claiming the cheese's origin is Armenia: The Oxford Companion to Cheese, Petrosian., I. and Underwood., D. (2006). Armenian Food: Fact, Fiction and Folklore. Yerkir Publishing, Bloomington, Indiana, USA.

sources claiming the cheese comes from Georgia: https://www.gov.uk/protected-food-drink-names/mesxuri-chechili-slash-meskhuri-chechili (A source from Protected food name with Protected Geographical Indication)

My sources were deleted for "not being reliable" or that they aren't from "independent" studies. Now tell me, why should the Protected food name with Protected Geographical Indication source NOT be count as reliable/independent?

Lets' compare two different types of Cheeses with each other:

Tenili A cheese that originates from the country of Georgia, and you will agree with me the word is 100% the same in structure with the word of "Chechili"

Etymology of Tenili means "Stuffed" in Georgian language

another type of cheese we have is Chechili.

Etymology of Chechili means "scutched" and the shape of the cheese is identical to what you would see in google looking up "scutched".

I'll say again, no wordplays. look up the word "scutched" not "scutch" in google and then look up the word "chechili" SonofJacob (talk) 14:44, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

SonofJacob, how does a 2021 trademark of Meskhuri Chechili determine the historic origin of.. anything? It's just a trademark of a specific type of chechil. - Kevo327 (talk) 17:23, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

My friend, you seem to be ignoring rest of my arguments. In a fair talk, you saying that a random "trademark" could not determine historic origin of anything is equal to me saying that a "meaningless piece of paper written by someone whose surname is ending on -yan" (in this case, meaning one of your source)doesn't trace origin of the cheese. The main thing is not about the trademark but is about the fact that it is marked by "Protection food name with protected Geographical indication" which is linked to the government of UK. So please, answer to EVERY of my argument with a counter-argument in addition with a reliable source. Thank you.SonofJacob (talk) 17:57, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't "have" sources in "there", and no, researches do have more factual value than trademarks. And I find you your ethnic classification of sources worrying, and meaningless. Could you clarify your "argument" better? - Kevo327 (talk) 18:05, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No my friend, that's not how it works. you said that you find my ethnic classification of sources "worrying and meaningless." Now, it is time for you to explain WHAT do you find wrong and WHY. Also do not leave any of my arguments unanswered. SonofJacob (talk) 18:23, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • I have fully protected the article for a week. @Wikinights and Monegasque100: Although other editors are reverting, you two are the worst offenders. You are welcome to constructively contribute to a discussion here of the issues, but if you resume your disruption on the article after protection expires, you risk being blocked without notice.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:01, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I might also take a look at this. MoonlightVector 20:01, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I reverted Monegasque100 because I assumed they were a troll. Their contribs clearly show that they are familiar with Wikipedia jargon, and they have attacked other editors as "vandals" and "POV editors", including harassment on their talk pages. wikinights talk 20:03, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • A quick read through their contribs appears that they have an anti-Georgian agenda. They are familiar with terms, policies and guidelines such as "vandal", (diff) "WP:SOAP" (diff) and WP:GNG (diff, this shows they are also familiar with how AfD works). They attack users on their talk pages, see diff and diff. The quote Do not interfere in my affairs is a telltale sign of a POV pusher or troll. This led me to suspect that they are a long-term troll (Satt 2?). I am aware that I risk being blocked. wikinights talk 20:12, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • As far as I'm concerned, the edit-warring on this article is a content dispute. This is borne out by the fact that it is not only Monegasque100 who was reverting you. If you believe that Monegasque100 is a sock, then file a report at WP:SPI. If you believe they are a "troll", then take them to WP:ANI, but this Talk page is not the venue for airing your grievances about another editor with whom you have a content dispute. Finally, you're right, you risk being blocked if you continue these personal attacks.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:22, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • sir, i understand. i will no longer do such edits. good day. Monegasque100 (talk) 20:48, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • What personal attacks am I making? wikinights talk 20:43, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • reporting me as a "vandal" and reverting my edits even though i always justified them. if i am to be blocked, then only after you. Monegasque100 (talk) 20:47, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The edit summary you only use georgian sources! this is wp:soap, and propaganda! cease your pov editing (diff) is your justification, correct? wikinights talk 20:56, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes. users must present third-party non-biased sources Monegasque100 (talk) 04:51, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I originally put in the piece about the UK protected description and wish it had not got bound up with the rather pointless argument about the origin of the cheese (which cheese I don't think I have ever seen or tasted. Its certainly not a common type of cheese in the UK where I live )The UK government website says that Meskhuri Chechili is a "protected geographical description" . A "protected geographical description" is a technical term which I will explain in a moment. It is not a "trade mark" which is a sign or name which is owned by a particular company or individual to denote their products and theirs alone. The very first trade mark in British legal history was the red triangle on Bass beer. Sometimes a trade mark is the name of the product in a particular type face such as the well known marks of Coca Cola or Lego. It is not restricted to food. A "protected geographiclal description" usually applies to food although it may apply to other things so far as I know. It is not owned by a particular producer but can be used by any producer for any food item of the type which is made in a particular region. Thus "Stilton Cheese" can only be applied to cheese made in parts of Leicestershire, Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire. It is usually blue but can be a kind of white cheese. Blue cheese made in Denmark cannot be called Stilton, neither can blue cheese made in Northamptonshire or Japan. Scotch whisky can only be applied to whisky made in Scotland. Champagne can only be applied to wine made in the Champagne region of France and so on. 

" In the UK, Meskhuri Chechili has a "protected geographical indication" trademark, meaning that cheese with that label are made in that particular region of Georgia."

It is therefore incorrect in that the description has nothing to do with any trade mark. The description can be used by any Meshkuri producer for its cheese produced in that region. It could not be used for any cheese made elsewhere in Georgia or in Armenia or USA. However the description here is not "chechili" but "meshkuri chechili." I think this means that a similar cheese from Armenia could be called Armenian chechili but not meshkuri chechili. Note not all geographical descriptions are protected. Chedddar cheese is not a protected description and Cheddar cheese is made all over the world. Furthermore "cheese" is singular not plural so "are " is not grammatical. "Is" should be used instead. The sentence therefore should read:

"In the UK, Meskhuri Chechili is a "protected geographical indication", meaning that cheese with that description or label is (and indeed must be) made in that particular region of Georgia."

Please could the sentence be so changed in the article. I do not agree with Sonofjacob's reasoning in any way. He was asked to provide another reliable source for his proposition that checil or chechili originated in Georgia and not Armenia.and I do not believe he has done so. The only sources I have found are the Official UK government website which I would hope is reliable and the other sources already used in the article. I cannot find any description or picture of "a scutched shape" by googling "scutched " I do not believe there is such a thing. I think I did find a picture of some scutched flax fibres, which is not the same thing at all..That is like calling a picture of a piece of frayed fabric a frayed shape.Spinney Hill (talk) 23:16, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Spinney Hill thank you for explaining the full concept of protected geographical indication, I had some understanding of it but now I fully get it, i suggest that part of the article is changed to "In the UK, Meskhuri Chechili is a "protected geographical indication", meaning that only cheese made in that particular region of Georgia cna be labeled as such." With a wlink to Meshkheti. Do you agree on this version? - Kevo327 (talk) 23:29, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Spinney Hill (talk) 08:25, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Further down the website states "Protected under the UK-Georgia strategic partnership and cooperation agreement". So not a reliable source. --Steverci (talk) 19:07, 6 October 2021 (UTC) This doesnt make the source unreliable in my view.Spinney Hill (talk) 22:56, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Hmm, it is understandable but still not really the case. Now answer this question, does THIS and THIS Not look 100% identical?

OR

does THIS not look exactly identical (SHAPE-WISE) as it is shown HERE

also, I gave you every example, the cheese Tenili and cheese Chechili... Both words are 100% similar in the structures. Both Kartvelian words. With "ili" endings on them mostly indicating the "ed" suffix in English. Tenili meaning "stuffed" Chechili meaning "scutched"

If Chechili is really Armenian, tell me etymology of it?.. SonofJacob (talk) 09:30, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There has been no discussion for over 3 days now and sourced information has been removed. Can we restore the sourced information if there are no objections or responses? Thanks--Van Gogia (talk) 21:57, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The citations SonofJacob kept adding were not reliable sources and contradict what reliable sources state. --Steverci (talk) 01:45, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree . He was asked to provide another source as well but did not do so. He was also extrapolating his own theory or belief from the source which I believe is not allowed in WP policy, being akin to original research. Kevo 327 and I agreed a reinstatement of one item I introduced (see above " which does say the cheese is made in Georgia but will not satisfy SonofJacob.Spinney Hill (talk) 07:53, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The article shows only one point of view on a subject that is being discussed. The etymology of the name is 100% Georgian (you really have to be dishonest to deny this). But let's talk about sources.
  • Firstly, the first source is irrelevant. Armenian Food: Fact, Fiction and Folklore: the name speaks for itself. It is about "diet of David of Sassoun, the legendary Armenian Hercules" etc...
  • The second source doesn't say that the cheese is from Armenia but says that it is an Armenian cheese without giving any proof and writing a bit above that "Brinza is a fresh cheese from Georgia" which is obviously false. This information makes me frankly doubt the quality of the research that allowed the author to say that chechili was Armenian. This is not an investigative book but a cookbook.
Here is a source at least as solid as those proposed for your point of view:
https://books.google.fr/books?id=MDb_DwAAQBAJ&pg=PT105&dq=chechili+g%C3%A9orgie&hl=fr&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=chechili%20g%C3%A9orgie&f=false
So I propose to include both points of view in the article. You could say that it is a cheese that is present in both Armenia and Georgia for example.
There is no mention of Georgia in the article with your version. It is completely irrelevant and you know it. What do you think?--Van Gogia (talk) 18:07, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The web page you cite does not show the words "chechil","Chechili" or "fromage". If the book deals with the point you should find the relevant page and cite the paper version with that page.number..Spinney Hill (talk) 23:29, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Look carefully It's between "Hors-d'oeuvre et fromages" and "Le khachapuri" in orange colour. I have this source as well: Terra Madre - 1,600 Food Communities. (2006). Italia, Slow Food Editore. Page 256
I suggest you also to read this source which describes a fairly neutral point of view (mentioning the differences in preparation between Georgia and Armenia which is interesting for an encyclopedia): https://books.google.fr/books?id=Hp1fDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA235&dq=Georgian+cheeses+chechil&hl=fr&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=falseGARDENS of BIODIVERSITY: Conservation of genetic resources and their use in traditional food production systems by small farmers of the Southern Caucasus. Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations. Food & Agriculture Org., 2018 ISBN : 9251066132, 9789251066133 Page 235
I look forward to working with you in an encyclopaedic way and wish you a good evening.--Van Gogia (talk) 22:42, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
https://books.google.fr/books?id=Hp1fDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA235&dq=Georgian+cheeses+chechil&hl=fr&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false is good authority for saying that Chechil is made in Armenia and and Georgia but not for saying that it originated in either country..Spinney Hill (talk) 08:10, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, but then the sources mentioned in the article do not allow to say that this cheese originates from Armenia according to your reasoning.
  • The first source is irrelevant. Armenian Food: Fact, Fiction and Folklore: the name speaks for itself. It is about "diet of David of Sassoun, the legendary Armenian Hercules" etc...
  • The second source doesn't say that the cheese is originated in Armenia but says that it is an Armenian cheese without giving any proof and writing a bit above that "Brinza is a fresh cheese from Georgia" which is obviously false. This information makes me frankly doubt the quality of the research that allowed the author to say that chechili was Armenian. This is not an investigative book but a cookbook.
Compared to your sources, my sources are just as good or better than yours.
Therefore I don't understand why the article only mentions one point of view. Furthermore you overinterpret the oxford source because it does not mention the origin (I am as scrupulous as you are when you say that my source does not say that it is originated in either country).
Best regards--Van Gogia (talk) 14:52, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Protected edit request on 23 September 2021[edit]

First reference is broken. Please fix that. NMW03 (talk) 10:48, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Done — xaosflux Talk 11:18, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Protected edit request on 23 September 2021 (2)[edit]

Please can the following sentence: "In the UK, Meskhuri Chechili has a "protected geographical indication" trademark, meaning that cheese with that label are made in that particular region of Georgia.[7]" be replaced by "In the UK, Meskhuri Chechili is a "protected geographical indication", meaning that only cheese made in that particular region of Georgia can be labeled as such." This is clearer and more grammatical and has been agreed by one other user. Another user says it is "understandable" but wants more wholesale changes. If these larger changes are not made (or even if they are) the sentence still needs to be changed. The source for the sentence is unchanged.Spinney Hill (talk) 11:35, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done @Spinney Hill: this page is not protected and may be edited directly. — xaosflux Talk 15:19, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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