Talk:Bagratuni dynasty

Comments

This page needs further improvement. I’m going to return to it as soon as I’ve finished my work on the Georgian Bagratids. Kober 08:41, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Dear Kober;

Congratulations! It was an excellent article about the Bagratuni Kings. I tried to add the lands that Bagratuni Kings owned and/or controlled and what I added was according to the map of the Bagratuni Kingdom. Please read bellow what I added:

The Bagratuni or Bagratid (Armenian: Բագրատունի) royal dynasty of Armenia was a royal family whose branches formerly ruled many regional polities, including the Armenian lands of Sper|presently Ispir in Tayk Province, Bagrevand, Ani, Kingdom of Lori|Tashir-Dzoraget, Artsakh, Syunik, Vaspurakan Province, Turuberan Province, Ayrarat Province, Vanand, Mamikonian lands of Taron |(historic Armenia) Taron Province, Corduene, Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, and Bagrationi branch of Kings of Caucasian Iberia|Georgia.

I think that Bagrationi Kings of Georgia should not be looked at as if they are of different stock or ethnicity because Bagrationi are not even an offshoot of the Bagratuni, although they can be seen as an offshoot of Bagratuni, but they are the same as Bagratuni Kings. The Bagratuni Family owned and/or controlled lands from Georgia (a country that was a place of many kingdoms such as Iberia or Iveria, Kartli and Kakheti possibly related to Caucasian people or related to Iberian people, Lazica and Colchis|northeastern Anatolian people, Sveni|southwestern Caucasian people, Tao-Klarjeti|Tayk Armenians or Diaukhi Urartian, thus Armenian people, Mtskheta|Metskhet, and etc.) was unified under Ashot III Bagratuni King of Armenia, and his son Kiurike or Giurige|Georgi (979 - 989 A.D.) who was the King of Lori. His (Giurige|Georgi's) son David I (Anhogh meaning Landless in Armenian) became the King of the new Kingdom named Georgia. Therefore, the Bagrationi should be considered same as Bagratuni, branch of Georgia, or simply an offshoot of the Armenian Bagratuni Family. Ashot III's sons Smbat II and Gagik I were brothers of Georgi and Kings of Armenia.

Mtskheta or Metskhet is the Armenian version of the Urartian Diaukhi or Tiaukhi, where Dia or Tia (this kind of spelling still exists in Western Armenian because the Western Armenian does confuse G with K with Q, D with T, and etc.) means Mets in Armenian or Great in English and uhi or ukhi meaning Heaven in Hurrian and Urartian languages; therefore, Diaukhi means Great Heaven. There were and are many cities and places in historic Armenian Highland and in Armenian Republic named with Mets adjective to describe the greatness of it. For example, Mets Masis is referred to Mountain Ararat, Mtsbin, and etc.

With all due respect to Georgians, who (Iberians) were always a vassal Kingdom of Armenia, Persia, or Byzantium until they became a strong Kingdom under the Bagratuni Kings, should stop referring to Armenian lands (Tayk Province as Tao, Armenian Gugark Province, parts of Armenian Taron and Kars as Klarjeti, Armenian Javakhq as Javakheti, and etc.) as Georgian because these lands were always Armenian and only became part of the Bagratuni Georgian and Armenian Kingdom as property of the Bagratuni Family for a short period of time. Kars Gubernia, together with Artsakh or Karabakh, and Nakhichevan were part of the Democratic Republic of Armenia when the newly formed Soviet Union took control of the area. Stalin convinced Lenin to partition the Armenian lands in early 1920s and the injustice continues by the current, post-Soviet Union, Georgian Republic, Turkey, and current, post-Soviet Union, Azerbaijan Republic. The Armenian lands that are presently in Turkey are taken into consideration that Turks will do whatever that they can get away with; however, until such time that Armenians will succeed in regaining control of those lands.

At least the truth about the Armenian lands should be written next to the fairy tales created by the Georgian, Turk, and Azeri-Tatar people who write articles in Wikipedia. Let the readers be able to read the truth next to their fictions and hopefully the readers can figure out what is right and what is wrong...

Best Regards,

Garegin Nalbandian

P.S. Please let me know if you need my contact information and / or more information regarding Armenian history. Thank you for your time! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gareginnalbandian (talk • contribs) 03:55, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Dear Mr. Nalbandian, your words remind me of an old Georgian joke: Georgian poet says: my verses are so good that the Armenians claim I have Armenian roots. --95.104.115.74 (talk) 10:29, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Map

Parishan, you know talk pages are created to make comments and discuss the article. Making extra copies of the same article just to make a comment is hurting wikipedia. Regarding my revert. You are removing a material from the article based on a visual map. Unless you want to show us real academic sources, please don't disturb the article. VartanM 02:16, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

There was no interpretation of maps. You claim that according to Hewsen, the Bagratid Kingdom looked like what is drawn on Eupator's map attributed to 1000. I provided a link to a map from Hewsen's Armenia: Historical Atlas numbered 91 and entitled The Bagratid Kingdoms in Armenia, 962-1064. There is no similarity between what Hewsen depicted and what Eupator has on his map. There is no reason for the latter to be here.

Moreover, no credible source lists lands to the east of Dvin as part of Armenia during that period. Even Karen Yuzbashian, an Armenian historian, in the preface to Aristakes Lastivertsi's Narrative describes Armenia as following:

By the 10th century significant part of Northern Armenia was ruled by the Bagratuni. Under Ashot III (952–977) a once small fortress of Ani became the capital of the Shirak Kingdom and in a known sense, the all-Armenian capital. To the south of Shirak, around Lake Van and to its east, the Vaspurakan Kingdom was situated. It was ruled by the second most powerful dynasty (to the Bagratuni), the Artsruni. The rivalry between them and the Bagratuni would be most intense. In 908, Amir Yousouf presented Gagik Artsruni (908–943) with a royal crown, sent by the Khalif, in the attempt to end the growing influence of the Shirak kings.

To the west of the Shirak Kingdom, the Kingdom of Vanand with its capital in Kars was situated. It was ruled by Kings who belonged to the offshoot of the Bagratuni. In 970, a new principality emerged in southeastern Armenia - the Principality of Siunik, which similarly to Vanand was the dependency of the Bagratuni of Shirak. The capital of Siunik was originally Sisian, and later Kapan.

In the second half of the 10th century, the Tashir-Dzoraget, or the Lori Kingdom, emerged in northern Armenia with the capital in Lore, also ruled by the Bagratuni. Besides these purely Armenian states, the Principality of Tao with a mixed Armenian-Georgian population played a significant political role. Beginning in the 960s, it was ruled by Davit Kuropala, one of the most powerful feudal monarchs of the Transcaucasus.

The source then talks about the unification of Shirak, Lori, Vanand and to some extent Vaspurakan under Gagik's rule. As you see, nothing is said about Zangezur's or Karabakh's role in this unification. Parishan 06:30, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

You are putting words in my mouth, the map reads Armenian Feudal Kingdoms, your argument for removing it, in itself wasn't even relevant. Hewsen depicted 7 Armenian Kingdoms in his The Kingdom of Arc'ax, which covers about what is in the map which reads: Armenian Feudal Kingdoms, Karabakh AND Zankezur are there. There is no mistake on the map, as it really depict Armenian Feudal Kingdoms, your exclusions under the claim that some are not Bagradid is irrelevent as the map does not say Bagradids. It is also not very easy in some cases to tell who is a Bagradid and who is not, the genealogy was already posted at Khachen article, and several princes come from the other genealogy tree of the Bagradids, particularly those more Eastward, included Karabakh. VartanM 18:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

OR map changes

Kober Armenian Bagratids didn't control all of that region, but there were some parts they did control that are put under Iberia, like Tayk. It's WP:OR to change the source's map, and the edited version is objectively incorrect because it puts regions controlled by Armenia such as Tayk during this time period as under Iberia instead. Please revert yourself. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 09:58, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

There is a major flaw in your chronology. The map illustrates the period of 884-962, when Tayk/Tao was exactly under the Georgian Bagratid branch. See, eg., Toumanoff, Cyril (1963). Studies in Christian Caucasian history. Washington, DC: Georgetown University Press, p. 498 ("Appendix. Chronology of the Armeno-Georgian Marchlands"). In a matter of fact, Armenian Bagratids never actually controlled Tayk because during the region's Armenian period it was under the Mamikonids. --Kober^Talk 12:56, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Kober The Bagratunis annexed Tayk from the Mamikonians in the early 800s. The Iberian branch didn’t control the region until around 999. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 20:42, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Sources, please? Your claims seem to contradict the authorities such as Toumanoff. --Kober^Talk 20:47, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

• Ter-Ghevondyan, Aram N. «Բագրատունիների Թագավորություն» (Bagratuni Kingdom). Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia. vol. ii. Yerevan, Armenian SSR: Armenian Academy of Sciences, 1976, p. 202.
• Grigoryan, Gnel (1983). Տարոնի Բագրատունիների Ֆեոդալական Իշխանությունը IX - X Դարերում (The Feudal Bagratuni Principality of Taron from the 9th to 10th Centuries) (in Armenian). Yerevan, Armenian SSR: Armenian Academy of Sciences. p. 56. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 20:52, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

  I am sorry but these sources are unverifiable to most users and, while absolutely legitimate, they do not necessarily fit the WP:INDEPENDENT criteria. I just checked the Georgian Soviet Encyclopedia, a counterpart of your Armenian source, and it claims the other way round. On the other hand, Western scholarship I have consulted (Toumanoff, Hewsen) on this topic, is quite unambiguous regarding the ownership of Tao/Tayk in the period of our interest. I can provide full quotes if needed. Kober^Talk 16:58, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

  Can you quote the sources(s)? ZaniGiovanni (talk) 08:22, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

  Sure. Here's a quote from Toumanoff:

  Tayk’-Tao. – Originally Mamikonid (?). – To Pharnabazid Iberia IVth/IIIrd c. BC. – To Artaxiad Armenia: IInd c. BC. – Mamikonid. – Upper Tao Bagratid and Lower Tao Iberian Guaramid: after 772. – Lower Tao and Asisp’ori (from Upper Tao), in part at least, (Iberian) Bagratid: 787/807. – Entire Tao (Iberian) Bagratid: 813/30. – Toumanoff, Studies, p. 498

  ...and the one from Hewsen, who, after a lengthy discussion of the region's more ancient past and Mamikonid era, goes on:

  Sometime between 786 and 807, Lower Tao, together with Arseac’p’or (Geo.: Asisp’ori) in Upper Tao, passed to the Iberian branch of the Bagratids and by 813 all of Tao, both Upper and Lower, was in their hands. From this time onwards Tao remained in the Iberian rather than the Armenian sphere. – Hewsen, The Geography of Anasias of Sirak, p. 208.

  Hope this helps. Kober^Talk 15:23, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

  Kober none of those sources account for the 884-962 period that the map is for. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 12:30, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

  You might be kidding. :) Have you even read the text just above your post? First you claimed that the Georgian Bagratids did not control the area until 899.Then I brought the "first class" third-party academic sources clearly stating that as early as by 813 all of Tao had been under Georgian sway and remained so from this time onwards never to return to the Armenian rule. And now you are telling me that none of the sources prove my point? Kober^Talk 14:22, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

  Kober Please re-read my above comment, I clearly said the source gave the year 999, not 899. And where in any of your sources does it say “never to return to the Armenian rule”? Because this would be WP:OR. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 08:55, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

  Good for you :) The year 999 makes your claims even more difficult to sustain. So, according to your entangled chronology, entire Tao became Iberian Bagratid by 813 (as mentioned by Toumanoff and Hewsen), then somehow and sometime it became Armenian again, and reversed to Iberians in 999? If that's what you are trying to prove, it is blatantly a false version (no offense intended). Hewsen's statement that From this time onwards Tao remained in the Iberian rather than the Armenian sphere means exactly what I meant by saying that the region never returned to the Armenian rule and that's obvious to anyone with at least basic knowledge of the medieval Armeno-Georgian marchlands. Hewsen's quoted passage continues with the eventual integration of the Iberian Bagratid Tao-Klarjeti into a unified Georgian kingdom and never mentions any Armenian intermezzo. Finally, Toumanoff's 1961 paper "The Bagratids of Iberia from the eighth to the eleventh century" (Le Muséon, 74 [1961], pp. 5-42, 233-316) discusses the Iberian Bagratid acquisition of Tao and neighboring areas in detail and contains a carefully compiled list of an uninterrupted sequence of Iberian Bagratid rulers of Tao from 813 until the formation of the unified Kingdom of Georgia in 1008. Were it not for what I suspect to be nitpicking on your part and your baseless accusation of OR, I would have eagerly reproduced that list here for you. Kober^Talk 16:02, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

  Kober Despite the conflicting sources, ultimately they can’t just alter another source’s map, so I would suggest just removing the altered map from the article because there’s already another map anyway. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 14:05, 10 May 2022 (UTC)