Talk:Arabian horse/Archive 3

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Huh?

"Historically, Egypt was known for importing horses bred in the deserts of Palestine and the Arabian peninsula rather than as a source of native bloodstock."

Rather than what? I need to be able to tweak this for sense, but don't know what to tweak it to! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 08:42, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

As opposed to being a traditional horse-breeding native source. The Egyptians actually sucked at horse-breeding, with a few exceptions and Egypt wasn't horse-breeding country--various diseases kept killing them off, particularly African horse sickness. They had to keep going back to the desert to replace their stock (just like the Europeans). By the time you got to the late 1800s and the Blunts were trying to save the "pure" stock owned by Ali Pasha Sherif (APS), they were getting inbred by his staff people who just slavishly followed orders about pedigree with no clue as to the goal, but as APS was aging and not able to oversee the day-to-day, everything went into decline. When the Blunts had the Sheykh Obeyd stud by Cairo, every time they went back to England and returned to Egypt, they had lost stock; they not only had trouble with the usual laziness and drunkenness of staff you'd get anywhere if you left for a year, but they had horses that had died due to having been staked out with no water for days and other supposedly "traditional" management practices. All of which is, of course, anathema to the purists who insist that Egyptian-breds were the horses of the Pharoahs, but even the Pharoahs probably brought in stock from Palestine! LOL! Montanabw^(talk) 15:29, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

GAR drive Dec 2011

A drive to clean up old GAS is going on, and Arabian horse will be soon be reviewed. I noted that t may be useful to check the Good article criteria at WP:WIAGA - except that for the GAR drive, broken URLs can be ignored. You may want to check section "RS" of WP:V#RS. Good luck. --Philcha (talk) 06:31, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I've dropped a note on Philcha's page asking for more information about this drive - it's something that I hadn't heard was going on. However, it would probably also be a good thing for us to take care of the remaining tags on the article. It looks like there are two citation needed tags and one unreliable source tag. Does anyone have the source material that covers these points? Montana and Ealdgyth, I'm looking at you :) Dana boomer (talk) 17:28, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Why is it always this particular article that keeps being hit for GAR? We have several dozen that don't. I'll look at the tags. Montanabw^(talk) 23:06, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Ealdgyth, "Flight without wings" quote is consistently credited to "Byford, et al. Origins of the Arabian Breed" A search for "Byford" does bring up a book about Arabians, but it was published in 1987, so not apt to be the one we want, and it doesn't have that title. Any ideas? In the meantime, I found the most reliable-looking source currently on the net and swapped it out. I'm game for finding the source, if findable. Montanabw^(talk) 23:47, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Temperament question

The article states that Arabians are known for their fiery but gentle temperament. However it should also be noted that newborn foals have no fear of humans or stimuli such as loud noises, which is not true of foals of other breeds. White Arabian mare (talk) 18:44, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

That's an exaggeration; and anyway, to add it, we'd need a reliable source - if you have one, you can point it out to us, but I'm pretty dubious about it. (Full disclosure: two of the lead editors of this article are Arabian horse owners and we have seen newborn foals. Our observations are "original research" for wikipedia, but either way, we have to source our claims). Montanabw ^(talk) 22:31, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

I can't find the exact source right now, but I know it's in one of my horse encyclopedias. White Arabian mare (talk) 02:04, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Found the source: some old material from the Arabian Horse Association, formerly the International Arabian Horse Association, circa 1999. Printed in the October 1999 issue of Western Horseman. White Arabian mare (talk) 16:05, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Afraid it is totally marketing claims with no scientific basis. Just like the nonsense that Arabians always have on less lumbar vertebrae. Arabians are very people-focused, but they still have natural horse instincts. Foals take their cues from their dams; if the mare has no fear of humans, the foal responds accordingly. Montanabw ^(talk) 22:52, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Don't some Arabians have one less lumbar vertebrae? I thought some had the usual number and some had one less. White Arabian mare (talk) 00:36, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I have heard some pretty bizarre marketing claims, like the one that says all Paint horses are gentle. I learned different the first time I rode one; that horse should have been a professional saddle bronc. White Arabian mare (talk) 02:07, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

The lumbar vertebrae thing isn't exclusive to Arabs. Some have five, some have six, but there are other breeds of horses where you occasionally see five - it's not a breed trait- short backs were a breed trait (not as much these days). Gladys Brown Edwards (noted Arabian researcher and scholar) debunked that one decades ago. (but it persists). Montanabw ^(talk) 03:27, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Need Famous Arabians Section

On many of the dog articles there's a section called 'Famous ------------s' , which gives the names of real and fiction dogs of that breed who became famous through TV, movies or dog shows. I propose putting these kinds of sections in the horse breed articles. If this was done, I can contribute the following famous Arabians:

Khemosabi

Pieraz

Bask*

Huckleberry Bey

And these fictional Arabians:

Sham from Marguerite Henry's King of the Wind

Shetan from the Black Stallion

White Arabian mare (talk) 02:18, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Such lists are actually discouraged per WP:TRIV. Truly influential or otherwise central individuals should be handled within the article proper with good context, not as a bare list. --Pitke (talk) 07:26, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

There are no famous Arabians in the article, with the exception of Ronteza, and if you click that link it just takes you to Varian Arabians. White Arabian mare (talk) 18:20, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

We don't do "laundry lists" of famous horses in the breed articles. For one thing, see Category:Arabian and part-Arabian horses, where there are several dozen horses mentioned, all with their own articles. It is appropriate to mention foundation horses sometimes, but the Arabian is so ancient that we can't trace founders (other than the Al-Khamsa which were mythical but we mention them anyway). Any number of historically significant horses are mentioned throughout the article (Blueskin for George Washington, Leopard, etc.); a horse like Ronteza is noted because of her success against horses of other breeds, as an example of versatility, not as a "famous" horse. Aside from the trivia problem, where to begin? There are literally over a hundred horses (worldwide) that someone could argue "fame" - we simply are not going to go there. This is a WP:GA-class article and we worked, literally, for weeks to bring it to that status. Avoiding trivia lists was one thing that is important. Montanabw ^(talk) 03:22, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

With some other (much smaller) breeds there are individuals that are central to the breed, such as founder groups, a single bottleneck sire, or a stud with exceptional (more or less) influence. The Arabian doesn't have these AFAIK since it descends from a larger group of (semilegendary?) dams and has been bred in so many places that no horse stands out as "the" influence. Locally stand-out individuals (such as imported founders of local populations) should not be added to the main article since it's very long as is. A side article such as Arabian horse in the United States may be called for, and can perhaps make mention of horses such as Khemosabi++++ (who was not only a fairly influential sire but also some sort of a record holder with his ++++, IIRC). Others possibly mentionworthy individuals for the breed's main article might be sports record holders or other major winners, if they stand out.

That having been said, I'm off to look at some dog articles to see if I can't weed out a laundry list or two.

--Pitke (talk) 07:55, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, there are individually-named foundation bloodstock animals in many breeds, but like the Thoroughbred, only the passing historical references to assorted studs or animals are really needed here - and we have a lot of articles on individual animals, with the category listing them (or it should) - see Category:Arabian and part-Arabian horses covers it well enough. I don't like to get into show records because horse show are so subjective, and Arabian racing is, sadly, a total joke. Montanabw ^(talk) 03:58, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

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The El Rey Magnum Controversy

I've added a section on the trend for extremely exaggerated dished profiles in the breed. If anyone can find some suitable photos to illustrate, please add them. GM Pink Elephant (talk) 20:16, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Someone reverted my addition of this topic without giving a reason. My edit was correctly cited. If someone thinks the topic is not "notable" or valuable to the article, kindly discuss why here before simply removing it. GM Pink Elephant (talk) 13:14, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

It was not reverted - it was moved and cut down. It's now in the "Genetic disorders" section, where it fits better. There's no need to call out a specific horse ... as that yearling is not the cause of the problem. Nor do we need to discuss the yearling in detail. I've restored the cut down version. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:33, 6 November 2018 (UTC)