File talk:Albania minorities.png

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Outdated map[edit]

Why does this map rely from 1918? Get the real census from INSTAT. AceDouble (talk) 09:16 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Le Monde Diplomatique's map isn't a 1918 creation, in fact it's the most recent and reliable demographic picture of Albania we have today.Alexikoua (talk) 19:15, 27 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

AceDouble the 1918 creation was Soteriadis. Resnjari has a lot of things he can tell you about how Soteriadis' work came to be. I'm the one who made the map you're trying to replace it with. I still have to fix two spots of Vurg and Moscopole. Currently there is a truce of sorts I'm party to that also involves Resnjari and Ktrimi on one side, and Khirurg and Alexikoua on the other, to have both maps side by side. As you may be able to tell I have a dim view of both using Soteriadis and Qosja (who is the source of the Monde Diplomatique map... a literary critic, not an anthro or demographer), but pragmatism is necessary. This is not a good time to undermine a hard won truce.

If you want to be helpful, I suggest you adhere to the truce formula between the two sides currently active on English wiki -- place my map next to Alexikoua's but don't delete Alexikoua's. --Calthinus (talk) 18:54, 28 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Le Monde's map has reliability issues reliable and and is all based on Rexhep Qosja Le Albanie, a nationalist work full of inaccuracies including his map and data around it. This map borrows from such sources for its composition and in future each source will need to discussed one by one at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. Anyway for now @Calthinus:' map was allowed into articles by a resolution of noninvolved editors and that was a very important decision and the contrasts between both maps are stark. Calthinus' map is based on fieldwork and scholarly work of academia. With Sotieriades map, it was based on World War One Greek propaganda which was advocating the Greek view for land claims (Greater Greece), had the Greeks maintained their position of war victor and not been checked by General Kemal Ataturk. On Sotiradias being WW1 propaganda see Wilkinson [1] @AceDouble:, as i don't want to repeat past discussions like a broken record at length here, they can be found on the following pages [2], [3]. So aftaer you read all that, you'll get an idea of the discussions around this issue. I do share your concerns that a 1918 map created for past propaganda purposes is considered sound data, but those are the quirks of Wikipedia. Best.Resnjari (talk) 13:42, 1 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The RSN regarded and still regards Le Monde to be a very reliable source. Like it or not. Anything Resnjari has said here, only is reflecting his personal opinions and nothing more. Simple as that. Now, the editors, and particularly Resnjari, are adviced to not turn this place into WP:FORUM and restrict their discussion to only the necessary stuff, such as improvements on the map and or the article, not about their personal views. Thank you. -- ❤ SILENTRESIDENT ❤ 16:49, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the RSN didn't come to a decision about specifically the map by Le Monde based on the work of literary critic Rexhep Qosja, instead it suggested a compromise by which the maps are placed side by side, which we are now abiding by. I'm busy but if I happen to be the one to see Alexi's map removed somewhere where it is relevant and mine is placed I will reinstate. I hope you will do the same regarding mine. AceDouble please take note and know that it is not helpful act in a way that undermines this. --Calthinus (talk) 19:14, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The same is true for me and I will reinstate both maps. I always believed that all POV shall be covered on the issue of the Demographics of Albania (actually, I lost count how many times I have repeated this phrase, it kinda has become of a slogan lately). As everyone has noticed, the RSN's was quite clear: 1) The map by Rexhep Qosja should be present, and that 2) Diplomatique is reliable. Period. And we have reached a consensus based exactly on that RSN's resolution and this has to be defended from editors who only are seeking to censor information or do not care about Wikipedia and its purpose. -- ❤ SILENTRESIDENT ❤ 19:49, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Calthinus what kind of truce are you talking about? When it comes to Cham Albanians on maps of greece alexikoua and his mates do everything they can to decrease the amount as possible. Here's an example what i'm trying to say: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Greece_linguistic_minorities.svg, no wonder nikos kotzias wants the cham issue wiped out from the albanian history books. "But on albania that's another case fill the half bottom with greeks even if they are less than 1%" i call this INJUSTICE! AceDouble (talk) 22:49 16 March 2018 (UTC)

You need to follow Wikipedia is not a battleground. It's certain that if you insists on such polemics about this so-called "injustice" your future in wikipedia can't be guaranteed.Alexikoua (talk) 14:14, 17 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Are you the one who decides about it? If wikipedia is not a battleground then stop modifying albanian articles like a government minder. AceDouble (talk) 15:54 17 March 2018 (UTC)

AceDouble well I have shared your dismay at the situation where areas with actually 0% Greeks are labeled Greek in hte Albania "traditional" minorities map while there is no corresponding Greek "traditional" minorities map to showing where Chams were. I'm not an Albanian myself, but I've come to editing Albanian topics (which I have done research on recently) because I realized there were various issues, this being only one small part of the picture-- and national POV warring isn't even the half of it. The way to fix these things is not through edit warring and commenting about other editors. Actually, seriously don't do that, I disagree with Alexikoua on a lot of things but it must be said he has also contributed a lot to Wikipedia so it is better to work with him when possible. An international encyclopedia means that it is a constant endeavor for us all to reach agreements despite our natural differences in point of view. It's hard but it's worth it.

Anyhow regarding this dispute, here's the required reading for you : [[4]] (much text here, you can navigate to hte rest) [[5]] (here is the RSN discussion that led to the current truce we are observing) --Calthinus (talk) 16:19, 18 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Calthinus you've been very honest my regards, i demand that the blue area should be striped as it is on https://mondediplo.com/maps/albanianmdv1999 if you can do this then it should be helpful. AceDouble (talk) 14:31 20 March 2018 (UTC)

AceDouble unfortunately, I don't think I can in the current situation. As I said, if you want to help, the agreement authorizes you to place my map wherever Alexi's is (without deleting Alexi's). --Calthinus (talk) 18:38, 26 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]